Selection of Peco track

[Phil Needham]

That sounds like good advice Graeme, thank you.

Incidentally, I'm getting along well with Anyrail and just managing to stay within the 50 track section limit in the free/trial version. If I can avoid spending £45.00 on the full version that's good new also.

[MickT]

Apologies if this seems patronising, not intended, however having read through this thread, I can't help wondering if somewhere along the line we are forgetting the "fun" factor which is a keystone of our style of railway modelling and have also strayed off the way a bit in recent years from the KISS principle (keep it simple s........)

It appears to me that there is a bit of confusion going on which revolves largely around compatibility or otherwise with layout design software, there also seems to be some confusion about the various types of 9mm gauge track commercially available, so here is my own sixpennyworth:

1. Paper and pencil! Until the arrival in our homes of PCs and t'internet, layout planning was done (if it was done!) varied from beermats sketched out during social activity through to full size plans hand drawn on the back of a wallpaper roll or lining paper. Basic principle for 009 usually being regarding minimum radius of curve to use - 9 inch usually being accepted as the "standard" minimum, larger where possible. Many successful industrial and quarry layouts however have used much tighter radius curves.

2. Track. Basic and common "standard" for 009 has always been Peco. Continental HOe modellers and a few others have also used Piko, Roco and Tillig etc, but for the purposes of KISS, I'll stick to Peco as that is what in the UK is the easiest to obtain and is widely distributed through what remains of our model shops.

For years and years, the only Peco 009 track available was called "Crazy Track" - this is the familiar one with the jaggy edges to the sleepers, giving a rather run down and worn out impression. And for years and years this was only obtainable as flexi track, first as 18" lengths and in more recent years 36" (that's nearly a metre to the youngsters....)
Crazy track points: Initially 9" radius live frog. Out of production for years and keenly sought by "older modellers" who know a good thing when it appears! There were also 9" radius "dead frog" points, I don't know if these came before or after the live frog ones. General recommendation is to avoid these as the dead frog is large and short wheelbase locos travelling at slow 009 speeds will almost certainly stall frequently on them - do not confuse with the modern "insulfrog" ones - see below.

The main staple 009 points for many years have been 12" radius left and right points and 18" radius Y points. These are all live frog.

Since 009 set track (9" radius curves) was introduced a few years ago, new 9" radius points to accompany have been introduced, these are insulfrog which has spawned a degree of criticism in the hobby, and I don't have any so can't add to the comment on that except to say there are a number of layouts that I know that employ these, and haven't heard of any problems about stalling etc from those layout owners that I know.

The newer range of 009 track which is totally compatible with Crazy Track has a much neater look to it, with "good condition" sleepers and is termed 009 Mainline Track. This is available as flexi track in yard lengths and I believe it also comes as set track, but I have not personally seen that. Other than the neater looking "more modern and well preserved" look of the track, the main feature is the new live frog mainline points, which are 18" radius. I've got a few of these and they seem fine to me.

3. Track joiners/fishplates. Yes, good points, it's a fiddly and frustrating business! My own method, having tried putting them on by hand - it only works with the first one as the second is covered in blood from the first attempt, is to:
(a) ensure that the end of the track is perfectly cleaned up with a needle file to ensure smoothness and no sharp edges to snag the joiner and
(b) to use a fine nosed pair of pliers to hold the item and then gently push it onto the cleaned track edge.
(c) Then marry the piece of track with the fishplate on it to the track to be joined and after ensuring that this one has its edges cleaned up with the needle file, then using the pliers again, gently ease the two pieces of track together.
(d) If the joined rails appear loose, then fine compression of the in-situ fishplate with the fine nosed pliers should solve that.

Right that's the end of sermon, have fun and please don't get bogged down with designing layouts on the computer down to the last millimetre, get the wardrobe door off, pin some track to the back of it and start having fun!  The signal is green for the experts to enter the ring and blow me out of the water...................

Mick

[Steve Facknell]

Use of the Tracksetta curves is an aid to getting flexitrack to curve correctly- I have a 7inch radius which was made for me and I have no problems with 0-4-0 s and  Bachmann Baldwins negotiating the curves although the loading gauge is a bit tight in one direction. My tunnel clearances not the loco's fault.
Steve

https://dorsetrailwaymodelling.blogspot.com/

[B.Meldon]

Crazy track points: Initially 9" radius live frog. Out of production for years and keenly sought by "older modellers" who know a good thing when it appears! There were also 9" radius "dead frog" points, I don't know if these came before or after the live frog ones. General recommendation is to avoid these as the dead frog is large and short wheelbase locos travelling at slow 009 speeds will almost certainly stall frequently on them - do not confuse with the modern "insulfrog" ones.....................

Mick

The Peco Crazy track 9-inch radius 009 points were introduced with dead frog only in 1968 I think
It was not until 1975, following endless requests that they were changed to live frog. (electrofrog)

Production of the 9" points stopped in 1980 because the moulding dies had worn out and needed replacing. (Some of the very last batch also had blade to frog connection issues.)

The replacement for the 009 9-inch points were the 12-inch and 18-inch Y points. However, the geometry was not great in these and many found that they got better running with the older 9-inch points! In addition, the plastic used is not the same as in the earlier points and was more brittle.

In 2010 the moulding dies for the 12 inch and 18-inch Y 009 points were updated with better geometry extended plastic check rails and pivots for the point blades. (Previously there was a fishplate as a pivot.)

To confuse matters all the above LH and RH 009 points had the same Peco part numbers!

[Graeme Dunbar]

Apologies if this seems patronising, not intended, however having read through this thread, I can't help wondering if somewhere along the line we are forgetting the "fun" factor which is a keystone of our style of railway modelling and have also strayed off the way a bit in recent years from the KISS principle (keep it simple s........)

It appears to me that there is a bit of confusion going on which revolves largely around compatibility or otherwise with layout design software, there also seems to be some confusion about the various types of 9mm gauge track commercially available, so here is my own sixpennyworth:

Good point Mick. Layout design software is by no means a requirement. I think though, that if a new modeller "gets on" with computer software rather than finding it a battle it can be a useful tool. If the modeller and computers do not get along then they should not feel obliged to use software.

Looking back at some of my pre-computer layout sketches I see it was very easy to forget about minimum radii and especially easy to make curves look gentle by sketching easements/transition curves that can have very tight radii in the middle. Even easier, by making the sketches "hairy" that looked great but when cleaned up or traced were dreadful. Software is useful here, but compasses or a tech. drawing circle stencil can help keep hand sketches realistic. Hats off to anyone who can sketch within minimum curve specifications completely freehand.

Nothing beats making a full size mock up I think, whether hand-drawn or printed. I remember making several impromptu templates for curves out of old cereal packet card. I have just a minimum (9" radius) Tracksetta which is very useful for checking, but gathering them up is quite a big investment.

Probably best of all is getting some track, any track, a loco and a few wagons to try things out. There have been postings in the past where new modellers have produced CAD layouts and set out to buy track before owning any rolling stock, asking if such-and-such loco will run on it. Also hanging out to save up to buy, or wait for stock to arrive, some handsome but expensive steam loco rather than something to get started with.

Along the lines of building up a toolkit from scratch I was thinking what would make a good reliable "starter pack" of track, loco, wagons and controller?

[Phil Needham]

Thanks again for all the contributions to this thread – they are really all appreciated and I'm pleased the topic has given so much grey matter the opportunity to take some exercise during 'lockdown'.

But the likes of Hattons, rails, etc., etc., have plenty of stock!

Hattons and Rails, as two store examples, have most of their 009 track items on, 'pre-order', 'ordered on request' or 'back order'. Very few items 'in stock'. I haven't yet looked anywhere else to see if smaller suppliers have items on their shelves.

Apologies if this seems patronising, ......

My whole life I've enjoyed designing projects (not railway modelling) with paper and pencil as suggested, in fact I've often enjoyed the planning more than the subsequent making process but, for a novice, there is a key element provided by computer software which the P&P method can't provide and that is the ability to plan with stock items. This provides confidence in the design because if it works on the computer plan, it will (should!) work on the actual board.

Track items are individually inexpensive but collectively, for a layout, (as you will all be aware) they can become a sizeable sum and I've never been one to take a bad purchase without becoming grumpy. My current plan is looking at £250+ for track, £117 for a sound decoder, £144 for a loco, £230+ for a DDC control setup, etc. So, £741 and no rolling stock, scenery yet considered. I know I could start a little simpler but I don't see the point in buying simple and then spending again as I develop my knowledge and skills.

I should add that having worked with IT for 30 years a computer is my starting point when looking for a solution, whether it be for financial planning or to design a replacement kitchen. For me, I get a lot of satisfaction out of using computers and layout planning software has really been my saviour. Without it I think I would have given up on this project by now. On the other hand, I can see where you're coming from Mick – I knew a school timetabler years ago who used to plan next year's timetable on the back of Woodbines packets - it invariably worked and kids and staff were in the right rooms at the right times, etc, ................ and there was nothing patronising about your reply, it was quality.

[Tom Haythornthwaite]

I enjoy using AnyRail but would look as sternly on somebody who said computers are necessary for layout planning as I would on somebody who said they have no place at all.

[Peter Boulter]

I must be a bit of a weird person. I designed my layout using pencil & paper with help from the Peco point templates reduced to the same scale as my plan.

Then after I'd finished all the track laying I used Anyrail to create the track diagram which I've pinned up on the wall of the railway room, and put on the railway's website.

[Hobby]

Why not just glue the templates on the plan and pin that up?! Think of all the time you are wasting on the computer duplicating work when you could be modelling!! ;)

[Peter Boulter]

Originally I did have the paper plan on the wall, complete with 'stuck on' points, but it wasn't accurate because I'd made a few alterations when I did the track laying. Then about a year later when I extended the layout the plan for the extensions was a slightly  different scale, and the whole plan was rather large.
I also wanted a decent version to put on the website, so I created a new up-to-date version in Anyrail.

[Graeme Dunbar]

I must be a bit of a weird person. I designed my layout using pencil & paper with help from the Peco point templates reduced to the same scale as my plan.

Then after I'd finished all the track laying I used Anyrail to create the track diagram which I've pinned up on the wall of the railway room, and put on the railway's website.

Not at all! I have taken past doodles and sketches and recreated them in Anyrail. Some early ones were very much wishful thinking and it is easy to see where I was pushing my luck in terms of curve radius.

That's a great idea, reducing the Peco point templates. Many years back, someone in the 009 Society produced a series of templates for points and curves that I printed out full size and cut up. I didn't think of reducing them, but doing so wasn't straight forward then.

[Alan Feldon]

Re fitting of fish plates (rail joiners ) I find that using a very fine swiss file to both sides of the rail at an angle means you can push the rail joiners  on much easier .
Brian are you sure about the 9" points  , as I started around 1968 and my points are live frog .

[B.Meldon]

Re fitting of fish plates (rail joiners ) I find that using a very fine swiss file to both sides of the rail at an angle means you can push the rail joiners  on much easier .
Brian are you sure about the 9" points  , as I started around 1968 and my points are live frog .

No I am not sure, it was so many years ago now!
I will have to check back in the old 009 news from the 70's. But I do know that they were dead frog for some years.

[B.Meldon]

In regard to the Peco 009 9 inch electrofrog points.

As I mentioned above they were at first only available with dead plastic frogs from about 1968 (I do not know the exact date) and this resulted in many complaints from 009 modellers and several articles in 009 news about hand building points.

'Live frog' (not using the term electrofrog) 009 points were first mentioned by Peco in 1973 and they stated that these would be 12 inch. However nothing was produced.

In the May 1975 009 News Nuremberg toy fair report it is stated that Peco were going to 're-introduce the 009 points with live frogs'. However these were to be a 'revamped' version of the 9 inch points, not 12 inch as previously announced. Comment was made that that Peco had mentioned live frog 009 points two years before, but they had not been produced.
I could not find any mention in 009 News as to when the live frog (electrofrog) 009 points were first made available. But it is was certainly after the above report.

As I mentioned in a previous post the 9 inch moulding dies would become worn out and production stopped in late 1979. Peco announced that there would be one last production run in April 1980, but this did not happen. For much of 1980 there were no 009 points available at all other than those retailers with remaining stock. The 12 inch points, and 18 inch Y points started to arrive at retailers in December 1980. By this time there was quite a backlog of orders that were not cleared until January 1981.

The fact that the 9 inch 009 electrofrog points were only in production for four years as opposed to the 7 years of the previous dead frog points would to some way to explain why there are so many more of the earlier dead frog 9 inch points still around than the electrofrog versions.

[Phil Needham]

For much of 1980 there were no 009 points available at all other than those retailers with remaining stock.

If anyone has recently tried to buy any track or points, etc, they will know that this is much like the situation now, but not just for 009 points, for everything. I have found one supplier who had the things in that I needed but their stock is now further depleted to 'zero' for some items since I placed my order. Ther are some shops/outlets with hardly any points for sale and accessories, live feeds, rail joiners, etc, are also taking a hammering. Hopefully Peco will be able to get back to manufacturing soon and it maybe, of course, that they have their own stock ready to despatch to shops when they get back to work?