Peco 009 points , with Peco point motors

[Rob Simons]

Hoping someone can advise?
Returning to rail modelling after years ......  I have actually managed to get some track on some boards, and run some trains.
One repeating issue is that I find that the points after a while have in a few cases literally fallen apart - as if the point motor pulls the side off at the slide/change bar. Anyone else had this? Is it just that I need to complete the balasting to give the points extra support? They are currently pinned and glued.
The motors are powered through CDU , one is being operated through a Heathcote shuttle board.

Thanks
Rob

[Elmgate]

Can't say I have had any problems of this sort. I am not a fan of solenoid point motors but "inherited" a layout with these fitted, and have therefore persisted with this system for that layout. My points are (I think) 1980/90's era, and some of the motors are of a similar age. I have replaced a couple of PECO motors with modern SEEP equivalent, and fitted extra points and motors. I cannot imagine the CDU is causing a problem, as they tend to produce a short sharp motion, without putting excess force on the points; however, what voltage are you using to feed the CDU? I assume your points are modern? From the description, it is not clear what is failing - is it the tiebar (which moves the switch rails) becoming detached from the rail, or the sleepers at the side of this tearing away from the rest of the points? If you can take a photograph, it may help members here to diagnose, but also would be helpful to email PECO with the problem, as there might be a batch problem (however unlikely that is). http://www.peco-uk.com/contact.asp

[B.Meldon]

I use peco points and peco point motors with a CDU. I have not had any problems.
However my points are fitted to a solid 1/4 (6mm) plywood trackbed with a hole just big enough for the point motor shaft and the motor fixed below the trackbed, so they are not fixed directly to the points.

Brian Meldon

[Hobby]

I've used Peco points and point mounted Peco motors with the frog micro switch mounted onto the motor in the past and had no problems. I have never used a CDU, I've never found the need with Peco point motors running on 16vAC, even when changing two at once at a crossover. The normal voltage seems plenty.

[Rob Simons]

Thanks for the replies, I have had to replace 3 of the points now, they were not all bought together or even from the same place, so assume its something that I am doing wrong,  a bit hesitant to go ahead and balast them if thats not the problem, I was rather assuming its the motors being a bit 'violent' if thats the right word. Will try and upload a photo, but basically the first indication is conectivity issues such as have been widely discussed on the forum, but this time and last I could see when cleaning with the fine brush that one or more of the outside lugs were missing -this time I found it on the board and of course then I realised that the gauge was out, shortly later the side of the point came away, as in the photo. Any other ideas?

Rob

[Steve Lewis]

I too have  used  PECO  Points  in  various  scales  with  PECO  point  motors  or  many  years,  most  being used  with  the  point  motor  attached  to  the  sleeper  web under  the  baseboard  method,  with  some  using point  motor  sited adjacent  to  the  point   on the  baseboard  where  underboard  access/clearance  has  been  prohibitive.

I cannot  say  how  many  actual  point  I  have  used  over  the  years,  but  it  must  run  into 3  figures,  I have  had  very  few  problems with  points  becoming  faulty  with  use.

In  fact  I probably  had  more  problems in  the  Garden  when  I tried  some  PECO  G  scale  points  manually  controlled,  which developed  problems after  a  few  months  weather exposure  when  the  switch rails parted  company  with   the  tie  bars!

[Hobby]

I was rather assuming its the motors being a bit 'violent' if thats the right word.

That's the whole point with a CDU isn't it, to give a bigger "kick"? Personally I've never needed that extra kick and never had a disintegrating point issue... Some connection perhaps...

[Elmgate]

Since, from the rather indistinct photo, it appears that the point mechanism is sound, and the damage is to the sleepers adjacent, I cannot think that the problem is caused by the point motor. Do you pin the points down? If so, what track pins do you use, and do you predrill the marked position in the sleepers. It is quite possible that the area you show could be damaged by over tight pins - in fact, a small amount of "float" is not a bad thing. Otherwise, I am at a loss to know what you might have done wrong, sorry.

[B.Meldon]

It is a bit difficult to tell from your photo but I think what has happened is that the webbing that holds the stock rail has broken.
I have not had this problem myself but one possible cause could be the way you are fixing down the track on the soft cork tracked.
If you are using pins to hold the track down the webbing will bend and even possibly snap if you push the pins in too hard, but if you do not push them in hard enough the track will be insecure!
I do not use cork or any other underlay as we found that it was impossible to hold the track down securely without distorting the plastic webbing. We lay the track direct on the

[Graeme Dunbar]

I was rather assuming its the motors being a bit 'violent' if thats the right word.

That's the whole point with a CDU isn't it, to give a bigger "kick"? Personally I've never needed that extra kick and never had a disintegrating point issue... Some connection perhaps...

Partly. It can give a "weak" power supply some more "oomph" but conversely it can tame a "powerful" one.

It would be interesting to know which CDU was being used and what voltage it was being powered with.

Working correctly a CDU should give a nice camel's hump pulse of current not, a water-hammer thump. A point solenoids (particularly the traditional Peco type) have many turns of wire that act like an electronic flywheel so the current takes a while to build up to full intensity. By that time, the capacitor in the CDU is loosing its charge and the current tails off gently.

[Rob Simons]

Thanks for the replies, I have glued them and then also pinned them, was considering pinning these side parts that come adrift. Only reason for using CDU was because you can't control the length of contact given to switch the one point controlled by the shuttle unit and this was the way to prevent what felt like a half second of contact into the point motor -not good. Not had any problems with the motors themselves. There is one point that has not failed and that is switched from below rather than the board based motors, but can't see why that would make a difference?

[Graeme Dunbar]

There is one point that has not failed and that is switched from below rather than the board based motors, but can't see why that would make a difference?

That might indeed be a contributory factor. A solenoid point actuator under the baseboard could have a fair length of operating wire (rod) poking up from the actuator, through the baseboard and into the hole in the tie-bar giving a degree of shock absorbance.

A tie-bar operated from the side by a direct wire could give a more direct action and more of a "shock". The traditional solution is to put an "omega loop" in the wire to give a degree of springiness.

source: http://www.anticsonline.co.uk/1587_1_2410311.html

I guess the presumption is that an omega shape is the most springy for its size, but an "n" or "u" would do too.

Edit: just took another look at your photo. You appear to be using the brown plastic Peco dogbone-shaped link over the pip on the throwbar. I have that too and have not had any problems, though it might just be that it is less used or my CDU is less violent or operates off a lower voltage.

[Rob Simons]

Yes, hadnt thought of the play in the long pin from the under mounted motor, will have a crack at a version of this omega wire technique and see whether that helps. Many thanks.

[B.Meldon]

We have several Peco point motors mounted above the board driving Peco 009 points with a CDU. None have failed in the way you describe.

But as mentioned the points are all laid on a flat 1/4 (6mm) plywood track bed. So there is never any distortion the the plastic webbing of the point that could cause a weakness. In addition we always pre-bend the rail for the curves so that there is no added strain on rail joints or the plastic sleeper webbing.

Brian Meldon