Vertical boilered loco

[Tony Clarke]

Can anyone suggest a kit or a suitable chassis for a vertical boilered loco in 009

[MickT]

Hi Tony,

There is no absolute answer to this one - it depends on how "scale" and "exact" you want your model to be. Is it to be a scale model of an existing de Winton, or is it a freelance "character" model that displays the characteristics of the design?

If a scale model, then somebody who has a better knowledge of tiny and ancient Welsh things than me will answer I'm sure. I believe that most if not all models in this category would be totally scratch built - because you'd have to do quite a lot of skilled micro-engineering to get the working valve gear and slip-ring eccentrics sorted out for a start.

If it's a freelance or a representative then there are many 4 wheel chassis that you could start with and chop up in varying degrees. There have been many VB loco models described in 009 News over the years - I suggest get the set of back numbers available from David Camis and noted reasonably regularly in 009 News if you want to find a selection. The Fleischman chassis has been used relatively recently and the Ibertren chassis as well - although difficult and overly expensive to track one down nowadays. However the N-Drive chassis that Nevill Kent is producing as an Ibertren clone will give you a good starting point. Alternatively there's the Arnold or Ibertren kof for a small wheelbase chassis, or one of the Nigel Lawton ones.

Ted Polet has built a freelance VB loco "Jock" for his Craigcorrie & Dunalistair that started as a Fleischman track cleaning vehicle, and although this is a large loco if you want to pretend that it is a Welsh quarry de Winton, it is one of the most atmospheric loco models that you will ever see - particularly if you are lucky enough to see it moving along his quayside belching clouds of steam and smoke! Check out the Dutch Group website, link via the Society website to see this one if you haven't got 009 News November 2006 to hand. Ted was awarded the Peter Bayly Trophy for this model at the fondly remembered Redditch AGM in 2000 - which was the best AGM we've ever had (in my opinion - even though I am led to believe that it rivalled the Beijing Olympics in affordability, although I don't care how much it cost!) ;D

I'll now wait to be shot down in flames by the more knowledgeable!

Mick

[vulcan]

Just to add further possibilities to the tiny & ancient Welsh route, what about the larger & equally ancient (looking!) American route ??? Mike Rollins website has plans for a 10t class A vertical boiler Climax using a BoBo diesel chassis :o Scaled down a fraction it should make an interesting model. How about a vertical boiler Shay! Oh God, where are my dried frog pills!!

Happy modelling

Ken

[pfwebb]

I have just joined the forum and was looking for a place to ask a question about vertical boilered De Winton's when I came across this thread. 
In the Sept News Mike has a photo of one made by Peter Smith.  I would like to see underneath to see how the gearing has been arranged.  Many years ago I bought a kit from, I think, Slaters, it looks very similar to Peter's but the motor worm drive is onto a very small worm wheel which in turn drives a gear on one axle.  The result is a loco that goes like a rocket!  I am looking for a better set of gearing to make it more controllable.  Any ideas?
(I have seen an unmotorized kit from the same source on "That Dam Railway" )
Peter Webb

[vulcan]

Just going back to Tony Clark's original question & probably being a bit more realistic this time, Balmforth 040 VB locos were larger than DeWintons, therefore would seem to provide easier motorising possibilities yet still maintain the atmosphere.
Having outside cylinders (albeit inclined) it should not be impossible to source a chassis with a fairly close match to their 5 foot wheelbase (old Arnold 060 with centre wheels removed springs to mind - if you can find one) & ignore the fact that the cyls. are horizontal. Body would have to be scratchbuilt, but hey, this is fun isn't it? That's what my psychiatrist keeps telling me anyway.
The Narrow Gauge no.129 has a comprehensive article complete with drawings of three variations.

Hope this helps a little,

Live long & prosper

Ken

ps I think the kit mentioned is an old Saltford Models(Brian Clarke) one.

[Andy_Elms]

I've been meaning to put together a VB model some time - I've seen Pro-Hobby Ca-ND-1 Chassis (Japanese import) on ebay now and again and have been tempted, but can't recommend them as I know nothing about 'em. The only thing I know about them is they are small, and have a vertical motor

Anyone have experience of these? Are they any good?

There are currently some for sale on ebay (I have no connection with the seller!), but as I don't know whether they are much cop or not I enclose the link FYI only. May be a bit tricky to add outside cranks and rods.

http://tinyurl.com/5rxxsh

Is that yourself Flatlander?

[JulienW]

Can anyone suggest a kit or a suitable chassis for a vertical boilered loco in 009

If you want a kit of such a beast then there are 2 options:

The first is to as Brian to keep an eye out for the long out of production kit for a de Winton.  This was produced  by Saltford Models (which I think is the one Peter Webb is referring too).  The main weakness is the use of a small Sigami can motor - these have a habit of burning out and are nigh on unavailable now (may be worth looking at the small motors from Nigel Lawton to replace it).  The other may be that the coupling rods are of slightly differing lengths (!), as on my loco I needed to 'tweak' the one side to get the rod centres to be the same length.  The good news is that if you can get one they are fairly easy to build.

The other kit option is to buy the Sn3 vertical boiler loco from Backwoods miniatures.  Pete told me that this is in fact a 4 mm scale model of one of the 3 foot gauge Balmforth locos that Ken mentioned, though comparison with a drawing show it to be a little bit bigger - but not enough to look out of place.  The kit is designed for 14.2 mm gauge, and I have successfully narrowed mine down to 12 mm gauge and I reckon that with a bit of ingenuity you could get it down to 9 mm.  Like the Saltford de Winton it has the motor hidden in the boiler.

For an easy scratch build, there were a number of locos built in France - Cockrill? - which also used the "vertical boiler horizontal cylinders" combination but enclosed the upper works in an overall cab which gets around the problem of getting the motor in the boiler.  There were a number of UK tram engines (one on 2' 6" gauge, many more on 3' 6") which had vertical boilers hidden by an all over cab and tramway skirts which will hide a multitude of (engineering) sins!

I have a couple of the Pro-Hobby Ca-ND-1 chassis (bought through eBay - arrived very quickly from Japan so I can recommend the seller) and they run very well indeed - even better when the supplied weights are added!  The drawback though is that there would be no way of fitting coupling rods to the chassis and the axles are of the pin-point type (just like on the Kato 4 and 8 wheel chassis) which means there is not much scope for altering the diesel side frames.  The chassis would probably look OK under a Sentinel - type loco with a geared drive, but not a de Winton with its rod drive.

As to Peter Smith's de Winton, Peter is a member of my local group, and I know how many hours of time went into designing the loco, let alone building it!  He has used a multiple reduction system with axles being used more then once (i.e. one set is loose on it whilst another is fixed to it) and clearances measured in single thousandths of an inch.  If it works I have hopefully attached a couple of in progress photos of Peter's de Winton.

[Simon Andrews]

Paul Windle produces a freelance Sentinel VB on a Halling motor bogie and also I believe on the Bachmann 6w Plymouth? chassis. Both these chassis could be used for freelance Sentinel or Atkinson Walker type VBs.

Regards,

Simon Andrews.

[pfwebb]

Thanks Julien for the photos.  What a wonderful piece of engineering.  Peter must have access to a workshop to produce those excentrics.  I am sure you are right, my model was a Saltford one. It uses split frame construction which complicates any changes to the gearing.  I have a Nigel Lawton motor to hand for the rebuild but I still need to design a suitable gearbox.  I have an England engine to build first so it may be some time away.
Thanks anyway for the inspiration.

Peter

[DeadHorse]

I just purchased an excellent Japanese chassis made or marketed by ProHobby.
Bought on eBay for the princely sum of about