Wiring electrofrog points for passing loop using DC control

[Alan Roberts]

I have wired the two points to form a passing loop.  Power is supplied via a bus bar to the toe of each point.
IRJ's have bee fitted to the two rails forming the frog.  The rest of the layout is a large oval.
Why does the loco stall (or creep very slowly) when reaching the point from one direction but not the other, when the points are set for straight ahead?  When the same point is set for the loop it passes without stalling, but stalls when it reaches the exit point.  Please help!!

[JulienW]

Whilst I'm no expert on the elastic trickery it almost sounds like you are having problems with the electrical contact between the point blades and the stock rails (the fixed parts of the point).

Whilst electro frog points are better than dead frog types (conductive rail all the way through the point) as you change the point the frog needs to swap from one polarity to the other, and in theory does so via the tip of the point blade making contact with the relevant stock rail. The problem is that unlike most switches that use sliding contacts to keep themselves clean (by rubbing over one another) the point blades rely on pressing together, so anything that can get trapped will interrupt the current, including the thin layer of oxide that build up on the sides of both the blades and the stock rail. Try cleaning the 'contacts' up with some fine wet & dry paper (fold it over on itself, slip it between the blade and stock rail and whilst holding the point 'closed' against the paper gently slide the paper back and forth along the rails).

The reason that you have problems with these new point is that I suspect that the 'working' direction was the way the points were set whilst in the box (the blade pressing against the stock rail kept it relatively clean whilst the open side got mucky).

To reduce the problems in the future it may be worth fitting auxiliary switches (double pole single throw - I think) that follow the movement of the point blades and allow the power an alternative route to the frog (and from their along the point blade) if the contact between the blade and the stock rail isn't 100%. As a bonus one can use the switch and mechanically link it to the tiebar of the point so that as you change the switch you change the point.

If you are using point motors then I think add on switches are available (certainly Peco do them to fit their point motors).

There should be something on the forum about that under "frog polarity switching" or something along those lines as it is one of those perennial issues.

[Alan Roberts]

Thank you Julian, but I think it's more to do with where to put the isolating rail joiners. The point works perfectly when I disconnect it from the circuit.  I have IRJ's on the rails forming the V frog,but not on the outer rails.  Also the instructions with the point call for IRJ on all 4 rails of the passing loop between the 2points.     So do I still have to use IRJ on the frogs?  The mind boggles!

[Elmgate]

Can you draw your layout and show where you have fitted the insulated joiners? That way I (or someone) can advise better. :)

[B.Meldon]

I agree with Julien provided you have fitted two isolating fishplates one on each of the two rails between the two frogs and that these isolating fishplates are at the same place for both rails it should work fine. 
My guess would also be that you have a poor electrical joint.
The fixed rail to blade electrical switching in the 009 points can be unreliable and intermittent, because of this I always use frog polarity switches on every point, but others manage without by keeping the joint clean.

One insulating fishplate on one rail is not enough, you need one on each of the two rails between the frogs and they should be at the same rail joint for both rails not staggered.

If you do stagger the insulating fishplates then you will have to switch both points to the same loop track for it to work.

Obviously the points will only switch the power up to the insulating fishplates and the loco will only run over the isolating fishplate if both points are set to the same track.

Brian Meldon

[Alan Roberts]

Thanks to everyone for all your help, I had another go at it and removed the IRJ's from the frog and placed them on all rails on the loop tracked as the instructions suggested.  I am so used to fitting IRJ's on the frogs I didn't realise it was different for loops.   Thanks again.
On another point, can I use electronic track cleaners on 009 gauge?  I found it very useful on my 00 layout.

[JulienW]

There are two schools of thought with these.

Some people swear by them for 009 whereas others swear at them.

IIRC they work by applying short bursts of high current and "burn" the dirt, but that dirt still has to go somewhere and remember that 009 wheels and track are smaller than their 00 counterparts so it's not really an alternative to track cleaning IMHO.

You can also get issues when the high current gets to the wrong place (I remember a scratch built chassis I was test running somehow managed to 'weld' two bits of moving valve gear together and locked the chassis solid) and I'm not sure how well some of the smaller more modern motors (especially the 'brushless' type) would cope.

I did have them fitted to my last layout. Eventually I took them off (operators were getting shocks off the sides of the casettes in the fiddle yard despite a layer of insulation tape) and there wasn't any reduction in the running qualities of the layout.

All that being said though for every person who doesn't use them, or doesn't like them you probably find someone who wouldn't be without one.

[B.Meldon]

Many years ago (1980's) we fitted a Relco to Meanderbahn. However we also fitted it with a switch so it could be turned off.
Meanderbahn is only used at exhibitions and we clean the track each morning.
Following several experiments with the Relco on for a day or off all day we found there was no difference at all! We still found the track was dirty the next morning when it was on so we had to clean the track as usual.
Also as long as the track had been cleaned at the beginning of the day we had not problems all day with the Relco turned off.
The end result was that we just left it turned off and removed the unit altogether when we did some modifications to the control panel a few years later.

It has to be said that I always clean the track before using the layouts, I have found that this is the only way to ensure the track is clean and that we get good running.  Even on a large layout like Westdorf this takes somewhat less than 5 mins and all the layouts have been designed so that all the track is accessible for cleaning and that there are no delicate scenic items in the way.
Others use carbon, conducting liquids or similar materials on the track and do not clean the track every day, but we found that this reduced the pulling power of the locos somewhat so for us with grades on our layouts this was not an option.

We found the Flieshmann track cleaning loco with its rotating emery paper pads helps a lot, but even then we still clean the track every morning at exhibitions.

Brian Meldon

[Alan Roberts]

Thanks to you all for the info, judging by your remarks I'll give the electronic cleaner a miss.  I was afraid that it could harm the more delicate mechanisms but I must admit it seems to work well on my 00 layout.
The passing loop works fine now, thanks again.

[tedp]

I have wired the two points to form a passing loop.  Power is supplied via a bus bar to the toe of each point.
IRJ's have bee fitted to the two rails forming the frog.  The rest of the layout is a large oval.
Why does the loco stall (or creep very slowly) when reaching the point from one direction but not the other, when the points are set for straight ahead?  When the same point is set for the loop it passes without stalling, but stalls when it reaches the exit point.  Please help!!

Alan, it may depend on several factors - the way you gapped the track, on whether you added backup switches to the point blades and wired them properly, and on possible faults in the rail joiners and rail gaps. It's quite difficult to give you a straight advice.

It may well be that you rely on point blade contact only and the contact is faulty. If your loco stalls, touch the nearest point blade and the stock rail it rests against with a screwdriver. If the loco starts again it is point blade contact that causes the trouble.

I would check the track step by step. Here is a general diagram which includes loop switching with electrofrog points. Start from there, I'd say.