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A start has been made on our new layout, Cliffhanger. This will represent part of the Glenthorne Harbour branch that runs along the North Devon sea cliffs. It will have high visual impact as the cliffs are 5ft high and will start close to the floor. A passing loop, (Countisbury Loop) connects with a working funicular that descends to a lido at the foot of the cliffs. The layout will be 16ft long.
This is the start of baseboard construction. The flat section is the sea level BTW.
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The layout has a new website on http://www.cliffhanger.cd2.com/ (http://www.cliffhanger.cd2.com/)
JdF
As always, a superb new website John and I very much look forward to following the development of the Cliffhanger.
The drawing of the Glenthorne Lido reminds me in a nostalgic sort of way of Saltdean Lido just outside Brighton and also my own early adolescent "talent hunting" period at the sadly now demolished St Leonards open air pool/lido, just across the road from the old St Leonards West Marina station - which had similar art deco style architecture, a roller skating circuit of something approaching a quarter of a mile around the top of the terracing and what my parents told me was at the time it was built in the '30's, the biggest swimming pool in Europe, at approx 100yds long by around 50 wide (same as a football pitch in essence) with an enormous diving board and a deep end all of 15ft deep. Elf'n'Safety would have a field day if it still existed!
Regards
Mick
Current progress with board 1
Most of the woodwork has not been completed on the first board. It has really been a game of three dimensional chess to get it all to fit correctly. The form of the lido can be clearly seen. Trackbeds are in place for the funicular and main line. A G cramp holds in place a jig where a Warren truss girder bridge will be.
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My partner in crime on this project, Kevin Mason takes a breather
JdF
Below is the progress with the top funicular station. Art deco of course. The shuttered concrete support is clearly visible.
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Interesting idea, John. Is this meant as an extension to County Gate or as a standalone layout? You will have a huge expanse of rock to model. Rather on the scale of John Allen's G&D.
I like the funicular model. Very credible, and 'art deco, of course'... ;D
One question about the Lido. Will it withstand something like this if it's that low down on the coastline? Perhaps it's sheltered by an outlying reef?
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Cliffhanger can be an extension to CG and also a stand alone layout. With regards to the weather, I guess nothing is bombproof but there are other buildings along that coast as low and as close. Construction is concrete and Crittal steel windows. I guess the glass would be thick!
The biggest risk to the model is that being as low as it is to the ground, one of my cats might spray on it!
The funicular is of course narrow gauge, being 16.5mm ;D
best
JdF
Interesting idea, but I'm glad a lido didn't get built on that section of coastline in real life. It's nice the way it is.
I am glad it was not really built too. Work continues and four of the stations are in place. While working on the underside of the funicular, I placed it on a couple of old scooter batteries. There was a big bang and four inches of rail were completely vaporised! We now realise that the truss bridge needs to be moved four inches to the left. We are continuing with the automation of the cliff railway today.
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Quote from: pilotfriend on September 13, 2011, 20:03...The biggest risk to the model is that being as low as it is to the ground, one of my cats might spray on it!...
You could explain the smell as being caused by low tide.... ;D
Quote from: pilotfriend on September 13, 2011, 20:03
With regards to the weather, I guess nothing is bombproof but there are other buildings along that coast as low and as close. Construction is concrete and Crittal steel windows. I guess the glass would be thick!
I assume that you've the De La Warr Pavilion in mind. Curiously a lot of the Crittal windows used were not steel but bronze, to solve the corrosion problem. I'm pleased to see the "streamline" style already evident in the upper station.
By the way, even a scooter battery packs one h*** of a punch. Once on my boat a money wrench slid off a locker top into the battery compartment and landed on top of one of my two lorry batteries. The result was quite spectacular
The building design is a fusion of art deco pavillions and lidos. The tea room at Criccieth is also a big player.
Right now I am cutting out sleepers on the track and converting it to baulkway.
JdF
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The trackwork is now baulkway and the funicular automated using Timpdon Electronics autoshuttle. The lower station is roughly in place but the roof over the tracks is not yet built.
The intermediate station buildings are also incomplete
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The trackwork is in and ballasted and detailed along with the platform.
It looks excellent, I understand what you mean about 3D puzzles, having a similar issue myself except my 'Y' axis is somewhat shorter ;D
I'm totally green with envy at your spacious work area :P
After two days work, the second baseboard is close to completion and is now ready to lay the trackbed. Two County Gate modules can be seen cocooned and racked up on the wall with the fiddle yards up in the Gods.
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I have just completed the build of the layout's second bridge. A Noch laser cut product which is perfectly detailed with thousands of rivets and a joy to build.
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Have you drawn a trackplan for Cliffhanger yet, John?
Long time ago although we have now added another bridge and there will be some more changes as it evolves.
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Quote from: pilotfriend on September 13, 2011, 20:03
The funicular is of course narrow gauge, being 16.5mm ;D
;DSounds about right to me - I think there were several around the 4' or 5' gauge. Speaking as someone who was using height in this manner over 30 years ago (inspired by the great John Allen) I'm glad to see someone else using the technique, which isn't all that common in Britain. The layout looks very spectacular. Looking forward to more reports.
I carved the rock in a model of the Black Canyon (HON3) back in the 60s at the Golden NG Museum. I had always wanted to do it again
JdF
The exhibition Swiss layout 'Filisur' had a similar feature but it was a more conventional layout. I alway thought a great opportunity had been missed - how much more impressive it would have been if they'd carried the hillside right down to floor level! there's a great value in using a near-vertical baseboard!
Work went on apace today with the trackbed and track installed on baseboard 2 along with wiring tails and point motor.
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progress with co-builder Kevin Mason.
The Noch bridge installed. This will span a gorge with waterfall.
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Are you sure Kevin doesn't work for Network rail, its just every time you photograph him he's stood there with hands in pockets... That's how we always see the NR staff by the side of the track when we pass them... You do need to get an orange HV vest for him to make it more convincing, though.... :P
The layout's coming on nicely, btw! ;D
By the time I get to take shots, it has been rather a long day! We usually start at 08.00 hrs and finish 17.00 with no break! I would not be able to build this thing without his help BTW as access could not be more difficult.
We start work on the fiddle yards on Thursday. We already have built the support sockets into the main baseboards. We are beginning to wonder whether we shall actually connect to CG or always run it as a standalone.
I shall be so pleased when we can start on the scenery.
JdF
Less track on the trackplan than I was envisaging - good! :)
Tom, I am always going to go for 'railway in a landscape'. IMO, less is always more!
If there's one thing you've shown and taught us John it's the importance of scenery in setting the atmosphere and a sense of scale in 009. In which case, I don't think either you or Tom is going to like my model, namely a busy harbour station.
Rhobat, we all do what suits us best. You may enjoy operating trains and shunting. I have to say that for me, I cannot think of anything more boring. The engine shed and goods yard on County Gate work perfectly but I have to say that in six years, I have not operated a single working over it! It is there as a scenic detail.... perhaps someone would like to operate it, one day, who knows?
I think it also depends upon the sequence of design of the model. For me, the scenery was there first! I note that many layouts are track with scenic 'bits' scattered around the edges. For me, this is rarely convincing but then again, that is my taste.
JdF
Quote from: Hobby on December 13, 2011, 20:31
"...stood there with hands in pockets... That's how we always see the NR staff by the side of the track when we pass them..."
...and what else might you expect???!!! It's classed as "stop what you are doing and move to a place of safety"!! Helps to stop the PW workers getting run down by trains and saves an awful lot of paperwork!
Quote from: pilotfriend on December 14, 2011, 11:40
I think it also depends upon the sequence of design of the model. For me, the scenery was there first! I note that many layouts are track with scenic 'bits' scattered around the edges. For me, this is rarely convincing but then again, that is my taste.
JdF
I agree with you on this. Track with scenery at the edges is as you say unconvincing. And with an urban/industrial environment, the same problem can arise. I'm hoping that I can achieve a harbour that looks like a dockside rather than a marina and also that conveys the busy nature of the area without being too crowded. Another thing that I have difficulty with is a layout which has beautiful buildings but no sense that they are inhabitated. It's almost as if a railway has been built to serve a ghost town. I suspect that intelligent attention to detail is the way forward on this one.
Quote from: pilotfriend on December 14, 2011, 07:42
"Tom, I am always going to go for 'railway in a landscape'. IMO, less is always more!"
Quote from: Rhobat Bryn on December 14, 2011, 10:14
"...I don't think either you or Tom is going to like my model, namely a busy harbour station."
Both equally valid approaches! So how would you lot class me? For me, part of the appeal of narrow gauge is very much seeing the railway in the landscape and that indeed is what I've tried to reproduce in my model (and I'm sure you're familiar with it by now...) On the other hand, I also delight in the operational side, have a busy main station and thoroughly operating the pick-up goods, shunting in every station as it goes up and down the line!
Sounds like you have the best of both worlds.
Quote from: Rhobat Bryn on December 14, 2011, 12:12
"...I suspect that intelligent attention to detail is the way forward on this one."
Always. Careful observation of the prototype always pays off. Where and how do people park? Note how people usually arrange themselves in groups on station platforms. Seagulls always stand with their beaks into the wind. You'll often find a tree by a farm gate. Etc etc... You can give an impression of an inhabited high street with careful attention to detail and without one human figure!
Quote from: Rhobat Bryn on December 14, 2011, 12:26
Sounds like you have the best of both worlds.
I'm lucky enough to have had the space to build a complete operational railway set in the landscape but no luckier than Ted Polet, Philip Hancock, Derek Naylor, David Mander or John Ahern.
Quote from: pilotfriend on December 14, 2011, 07:42
"Tom, I am always going to go for 'railway in a landscape'. IMO, less is always more!"
I agree, a lot of people don't realise that a railway in a landscape doesn't have to be big - look how big Dunbracken was, 4'x10".
Quote from: Rhobat Bryn on December 14, 2011, 10:14
"...I don't think either you or Tom is going to like my model, namely a busy harbour station."
Rhobat, what do you think Isle Ornsay will be? It's got a harbour and I'll be running trains in and out of it all the time :) I'm sure what you're doing will be very interesting.
"Seagulls always stand with their beaks into the wind. "
and they always sh*t on my head!
Rhobat, the trick is to model what you see out of the window and not other model railways. Sounds obvious but you will be surprised how many never look carefully at the real thing. It is really worth doing a huge photoshoot of the type of subject and also make sure you know what time of year it is to ensure your plants show correctly.
"a layout which has beautiful buildings but no sense that they are inhabitated. "
One common mistake is that none of the buildings have windows open, or even the occasional door. Most model summertime but the buildings are all shut up. That is unless you are modelling what I call 'scary French villages' where many are all shut up during the day and not a person is in sight!
Quote from: pilotfriend on December 14, 2011, 14:20
"One common mistake is that none of the buildings have windows open..."
All excellent advice indeed but this bit especially applies to passenger rolling stock. As John says, most layouts are modelled on a warm summer day (mine's August) and buildings or carriages with all windows sealed tight just look so wrong. My early model carriages are built that way but later ones have dropped windows. This one has most on the visible side raised but the farthest is part dropped and looks so much better. Careful viewing of the windows on the other side of the compartments will reveal more dropped windows on that side but I digress slightly - this is the wrong bit of Forum for rolling stock.
Quote from: invercloy on December 14, 2011, 12:43
Rhobat, what do you think Isle Ornsay will be? It's got a harbour and I'll be running trains in and out of it all the time :) I'm sure what you're doing will be very interesting.
My apologies Tom. I think I was indulging in a bit of unnecessary self-deprecation. The goods yard will be quite sizeable, five roads with a headshunt. That's a bit hard to justify for a West Wales line, though thinking about it I wonder how many sidings there were at the slate wharves at Porthmadog. It will definitely be built with operational interest in mind but I do want to avoid a railway with a harbour at the edges if I can help it.
Quote from: pilotfriend on December 14, 2011, 14:20
Rhobat, the trick is to model what you see out of the window and not other model railways. Sounds obvious but you will be surprised how many never look carefully at the real thing. It is really worth doing a huge photoshoot of the type of subject and also make sure you know what time of year it is to ensure your plants show correctly.
"a layout which has beautiful buildings but no sense that they are inhabitated. "
One common mistake is that none of the buildings have windows open, or even the occasional door. Most model summertime but the buildings are all shut up. That is unless you are modelling what I call 'scary French villages' where many are all shut up during the day and not a person is in sight!
That's very true and, in addition to the comprehensive photoshoot, I think studying photos of the period should help convey the atmosphere of the time and place as well. Many thanks for some very useful pointers; I shall store them safely until the appropriate time.
Quote from: pilotfriend on December 14, 2011, 14:20...the trick is to model what you see out of the window and not other model railways. Sounds obvious but you will be surprised how many never look carefully at the real thing. It is really worth doing a huge photoshoot of the type of subject and also make sure you know what time of year it is to ensure your plants show correctly....
Oh no! Now you've really got me going! I agree you should look out of the window and model the real world, but there's nothing against looking at other model railways and being inspired by them. Where would any of us, me included, have been but for PD Hancock, David Mander, GR Hanan and others?
Quote from: pilotfriend on December 14, 2011, 11:40...You may enjoy operating trains and shunting. I have to say that for me, I cannot think of anything more boring. The engine shed and goods yard on County Gate work perfectly but I have to say that in six years, I have not operated a single working over it! It is there as a scenic detail.... perhaps someone would like to operate it, one day, who knows?...
Anyone may think of model railway operation as he likes. That having been said, it never bored me to run a model railway as if it was a real one, with goods forwarding, loco movements to and from the shed etc. I even try not to forget sending a loco to the coaling stage, the water tank and the ashpit. To me, modelling the traffic pattern is as essential in modelling a railway as the scenery and the rolling stock.
Quote from: tedp on December 15, 2011, 00:08
Anyone may think of model railway operation as he likes. That having been said, it never bored me to run a model railway as if it was a real one, with goods forwarding, loco movements to and from the shed etc. I even try not to forget sending a loco to the coaling stage, the water tank and the ashpit. To me, modelling the traffic pattern is as essential in modelling a railway as the scenery and the rolling stock.
Absolutely right Ted! Every one of my locos has a lay-over at each end of the line and they always visit the shed at Llanmynach, alternating so it's strictly first on shed = first off shed. Quite apart from anything else, it gets the locos out of the way and you don't have to go looking for them!
Once I've finished the new livestock vehicles and the new freight stock I'll be looking again at the freight forwarding system I devised about 25 years ago. Of course, if you're regularly shunting your yards you need to be confident in how well your layout runs. Like Ted, I use basic 12vdc power! So much fun...
We've started to hijack the Cliffhanger theme here. We need to open a thread on modelling traffic patterns; it would make an interesting discussion.
Good idea Rhobat
BTW, I have a comprehensive book coming out the end of next year on scenic modelling, published by The Crowood Press
JdF
Quote from: pilotfriend on December 15, 2011, 10:34
BTW, I have a comprehensive book coming out the end of next year on scenic modelling, published by The Crowood Press
JdF
The Christmas list for 2012 has now begun. :)
Today was taken up with fitting brackets to hold various wiring sockets cleaning excess ballast from the new track, finishing the support legs and finally, a start was made on the fiddle yard which could not frankly be more complicated.
Quote from: pilotfriend on December 15, 2011, 10:34
BTW, I have a comprehensive book coming out the end of next year on scenic modelling, published by The Crowood Press
JdF
That'll make very interesting reading John. I have a number of books on sceniking (If you'd said your book was on landscape modelling I'd have said 'landscaping'! ;D) ranging from my first 'mentor', John Ahern to Pendon and beyond so I'd be interested in your approach.
The book is titled "Scenic Modelling: A Guide for Railway Modellers" (not my choice)
It does not cover making buildings, urban and industrial which will follow.
I welcome any wish lists from you all for inclusion.
I'm glad to know the release date, John. Look forward to hearing more!
I'd like to see photo back scenes included, as well as a section on modelling from the prototype (not from other models), i.e. field research, what to look at in real life to make use of in modelling.
Got that bit!
Of course we can be inspired by other layouts and see how a subject is dealt with but the real thing must always remain the foca point. We all have different styles. After a while, it is possible to recognise some ones work.
Going to have a lot on backdrops.
The hope is to release at Warley when all three of my layouts are on display
Quote from: invercloy on December 15, 2011, 20:26
"I'd like to see photo back scenes included..."
Somewhat emotive subject, backscenes. I was so impressed with the excellent photographic ones which appeared some years ago I spent weeks trying to work out how to use them. I eventually gave up and continued with the dear old Peco ones (I hear shrieks of "herecy!!" and the sound of disembowelling cutlasses being sharpened...). Point is, they're extremely well thought out pieces of artwork, do the job very well and - more importantly - are so much part of the atmosphere and history of my railway that to change now would spoil it. Even if I took the time to produce my own backscenes, I'd reproduce the Peco ones because of that!
"knife is being sharpened"
Sure, and the Peco backscene would look like this?
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Quote from: pilotfriend on December 15, 2011, 18:36
The book is titled "Scenic Modelling: A Guide for Railway Modellers" (not my choice)
It does not cover making buildings, urban and industrial which will follow.
I welcome any wish lists from you all for inclusion.
When considering your book on buildings, which I assume includes station buildings, will you be writing anything on platforms?
of course!
Quote from: pilotfriend on December 16, 2011, 12:03
of course!
If there's one thing I've learnt in life, it's never take anything for granted. ;)
Back to Cliffhanger.
The fiddle yard is almost complete and track will be down by tomorrow night.
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Quote from: pilotfriend on December 16, 2011, 10:05
Sure, and the Peco backscene would look like this?
Well, perhaps not quite! But it's 'orses for courses and I just don't have the time to fiddle with backscenes these days when I've a railway to run and stock to build for it - never mind the proper steam stuff I run on big tracks! And if I'm taking photographs I'm careful with the angles.
You can make a photographic backscene quite cheaply which, in my opinion, will be better than the Peco ones whilst not up to John's standards...
Take one digital camera, find a "scene" that suits, stand on one place, swival left, take photo, swivel right a few degrees and carry on until you've done 180' (6 photos should do it)... Then go home and download photos onto computer. Get yourself a "Panorama" photo editing software (less than a fiver online) and follow instructions... Hey, presto, one Panorama photo of scene... Then print out using either the software with the panorama programme, or "poster" software with your printer using matt "bright white" paper... It won't be as good as John's because its not done professionally by experts and you have to join up each A4 sheet, but it looks far better than Peco backscenes because its a real scene... In effect what you are doing is what the guys who sell photo backscenes do (as well as several manufacturers such as Auhagen), just their's is a far better finish!
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Quite right Blair. Once I get my hands on you I shall further reprogramme you so that you do the full Monty! ;D
We ran out of fishplates so while the fiddle yard is completed now, we still do not have track closure.
Not sure that's a good idea... :o
Thanks both. Most digital cameras these days have a 'photo-stitch' facility which enables a full panorama to be taken so that certainly helps the process. I only have something like 20 feet (6 metres) of backscene to deal with as half of the layout is built with high relief modelling. However, in that 20 feet I need to be able to represent several miles of scenery - something which wouldn't be easy with a single panorama! One place where I have been able successfully to employ a photo is the Sychnant ravine. This uses a print from a transparency I took with the Canon many years ago with a 28mm lens from the bridge over the Dolgoch ravine just upstream of the viaduct. In all the years I searched for suitable location for a backdrop for the model taking and printing loads of photos, poetically it was the precise location of the prototype structure which eventually yielded the only useable photo!
Excellent photo, David - very atmospheric too. Shades of Dolgoch?
All the track is now laid on Cliffhanger and droppers will be installed in the fiddle yard tomorrow prior to ballasting. We then have to join up all the tails correctly!
Quote from: tedp on December 19, 2011, 16:00
Excellent photo, David - very atmospheric too. Shades of Dolgoch?
Spot-on Ted. This appeared on the front of the News some years ago. Simon Coward said that Liz mistook it for a prototype photo when she saw it! That's why I've taken the colour out - looks a bit more convincing. Any civil Engineer worth his salt will tell you that the arches are too shallow, which they are because I halved the spandrel height for a sleeker look. An uncivil Engineer will use more interesting language...
Should I start a new thread for Cliffhanger or just not bother?
Good old thread drift... Gets to all of us eventually... Keep going, John, they'll catch up in a minute!
Quote from: pilotfriend on December 21, 2011, 07:10
Should I start a new thread for Cliffhanger or just not bother?
Perhaps hijacking can be considered the sincerest form of flattery. However Llanmynach and Tawel-llety could be persuaded to start their own theme and leave you free to tell us of the latest developments in preparation for our being able to see the real thing at Warley.
Nah!! I'd much rather hijack an existing thread slowly and surreptitiously!
Today Cliffhanger - Tomorrow Zee Vorld!! (Evil laugh!!!) ;D ;D ;D
"Tomorrow Zee Vorld!!"
When I become emperor we shall see about that!
The wiring is under way on Cliffhanger ............ miles of it!
Quote from: pilotfriend on December 22, 2011, 18:50
The wiring is under way on Cliffhanger ............ miles of it!
Why so much?
Quote from: pilotfriend on December 22, 2011, 18:50
...When I become emperor we shall see about that!...
I feel a presence....!
Quote from: pilotfriend on December 22, 2011, 18:50
When I become emperor we shall see about that!
The wiring is under way on Cliffhanger ............ miles of it!
I'm already working towards Dark Overlord status. To echo a previous question - why so much wiring? I thought DCC did away with all that - or have you realised that there's no future in it and actually a basic DC system is better? ;D
Looking forward to more photos of Cliffhanger and may the force be with you...
Why so much wiring.......................
when DCC needs just 2 wires?
Firstly, Cliffhanger is long and the fiddle yard is longer than CG even.
I have droppers for power on every rail length
I have sensing, slow down and stop sections for the automation.
I have manual-over ride on point control.
I have annunciators for point positions on manual over-ride control panel
This equates for miles of wiring.
The electrical control panels are not even made yet which is another layer on top of all of this.
County Gate was the same, having consumed 18 reels of wire!
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Quote from: Rhobat Bryn on December 21, 2011, 19:08
However Llanmynach and Tawel-llety could be persuaded to start their own theme and leave you free to tell us of the latest developments in preparation for our being able to see the real thing at Warley.
It's probably fair if I do just that! At least then it gives the rest of you the chance to hijack it with a bit of thread-drift - and in the knowledge that I daren't complain!
This is the second board being wired.
The double angle at the bottom makes it very easy to tip it up and access beneath
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wiring under way
Very impressive John. As I said in an earlier note, it's nice to see a layout being built 'away from the norm', vertically and not table-top. Also noted are the hand-holds. We had similar on the MRC's 7mm 'Happisburgh' layout. I called then 'Euroholes' as they were metric in one dimension but Imperial in the other! Designing proper handholds into an exhibition layout is vital.
Quite right. CG also has handholds and essential they are too. Once built, two castors will be fitted on the underside so the panels can be wheeled along vertical.
The weak point of CG was the time needed for setup and knockdown. The rebuild has mitigated this by an hour on knockdown but it is still a business.
The estimated build time for Cliffhanger is one hour (plus time needed to rail stock).
All the basic wiring is now installed on Cliffhanger and that is how it shall have to be left as shortly I am off to Oz for a month.
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Progress so far
Looking great.
Is it still an intention that Cliffhanger can position behind Glenthorne Harbour and become part of CG. Or will it be a totally stand alone unit even at large exhibitions like Warley, where all three of your designs are on display.
Jeff
Nomally it will be stand alone except at Warley.
Progress is now stopped until I return from Oz. We have a West Mid meeting on 25th Feb with Cliffhanger which will for that one day be operating with DC so an opportunity for anybody to bring their stock to try on the 34ft loop ( Pugbashes included, I suppose). I have also agreed to remove the ASBO from Victoria.
Safe journey.
Thanks Rhobat, although 26 hours in a plane make one lose the will to live!
Quote from: pilotfriend on January 02, 2012, 10:21
...............an opportunity for anybody to bring their stock to try on the 34ft loop ( Pugbashes included, I suppose). I have also agreed to remove the ASBO from Victoria.
Would you like me to put your kind invite for everyone to bring pugbashes along up on NGRM-Online Forum John? (calm down dear, only joking........... :o)
Removing ASBO from Victoria is fine, as long as you keep it on Victoria's owner.
Watch out for sunburn and the dunny spiders whilst you are in the colonies
Happy New Year
Mick
Cliffhanger at present consists of track on a narrow ledge. A tipping bridge would be easy to devise for Pugbashes.
If you think I am looking forward to OZ, you are mistaken. Way outside of my comfort zone these days.
Quote from: pilotfriend on January 02, 2012, 11:18
26 hours in a plane make one lose the will to live!
Anything over a couple of hours on a plane makes me lose the will to live... At least if you are on a train you can get off and catch a later one... ;D
Give me a slow boat any day - even to China. The good old days of long distance liners are over, alas.
Indeed, still I am with my son now and all the grass here looks like undyed teddy bear fur!
Quote from: pilotfriend on January 05, 2012, 09:20
Indeed, still I am with my son now and all the grass here looks like undyed teddy bear fur!
Where are you John? The grass here in Melbourne is still remarkably green. Not British green, but green nevertheless.
I am in Adelaide where I am told that everything was green until recently
So that's why you've been so quiet recently!! ;D ;D ;D
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Loco 7 has been one of the first trains to run on Cliffhanger. I could not resist Photoshopping what it will look like (hopefully) once the scenery is in place.
Sadly, right now, it actually looks like this
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Excellent piece of photoshopping! Very impressive, John; it looks very good.
I hope it's not going to have that garish orange coloured rock on it, John ;) looks good otherwise.
Excellent engines, and a most imaginative piece of photoshopping. Looking good, John.
Quote from: invercloy on February 24, 2012, 17:05
I hope it's not going to have that garish orange coloured rock on it, John ;) looks good otherwise.
Oh I don't know - the orange rocks would clash BEAUTIFULLY with that lovely bright purple I saw photoshopped onto No 7... ;D
The rocks will be correct to shape and colour thanks to the help from Devon CC geology dept!
Rock building is now starting.
The first foam has been glued in place. It will be carved in two days.
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After the first carving. Gaps have been filled with expanding foam. These show as 'lumps' right now. We are working from geological photos of these cliffs.
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Starting to look like rock. Styrofoam is the way to go with large rock and hill faces. I love the mess on the floor by the way! Soon you'll find tiny white particles all over the house. I speak from experience ;D
Looking good John. Never mind cruelty to pizzas - what about cruelty to Styrofoam?? ;D
" I love the mess on the floor by the way! Soon you'll find tiny white particles all over the house. I speak from experience "
Soon? no already. We built two airplanes using the Rutan foam method so this is absolutely nothing! Exactly how it gets into certain very private parts of the anatomy so fast is still a mystery however!
Cruelty to foam? That is only the first cut!
Quote from: pilotfriend on February 29, 2012, 23:36
Cruelty to foam? That is only the first cut!
The first cut is always the deepest... ;D
Much more carving has taken place today and the rock strata are beginning to look credible. We have also built up the foam to the top and await the glorious time we can carve that too. Jenny is finding it hard to cope with the bits. We have been there before and it really is awful.
Tomorrow, we hope to get the funicular working......... at last.
The foam awfullness continues.
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The rock strata are now mostly carved and the heathland above completed. The globs of expanding foam are filling holes!
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Here, the cliffs have been blocked in on the lower section of the other board and will be carved tomorrow. The blocks are fixed with PVA and locked in with expanding foam.
11 bin bags of foam chips is the score so far!
The funicular seems so easy but has turned out to be quite hard. The single winding motor does not work accurately enough and we shall now be using two step motors with a new bespoke electronic control unit.
That is looking pretty spectacular John. Reminds me a bit of when I started the mountainside on mine! Nice to see it coming together, isn't it?
I think so! We have four days on the foam so far. It is so easy to get the carving wrong.
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I came out of the workshop looking like Fungus the Bogeyman. The back still needs carving!
Quote from: pilotfriend on March 03, 2012, 16:54
....11 bin bags of foam chips is the score so far!
The funicular seems so easy but has turned out to be quite hard. The single winding motor does not work accurately enough and we shall now be using two step motors with a new bespoke electronic control unit.
Just looking at it gives me the styrofoam itch!
Funicular: why not use end switches like on a ship's lifeboat davits? Yes, yes, I know it's analogue, not digital, but it works, you know. What you'd need is a small lever on a microswitch tripped by the funicular cage when it's nearing the end of run so it stops. The winding motor should have enough braking power to prevent it overshooting the end of run.
The problem is that they also have to stop in the right place at the centre station. Because the funicular is quite long, the fishing line does not always wind onto the pulleys in the same way, thus altering the pulley diameter. The variation is enough to ruin the effect. By using two step motors with our electronics, it will continually readjust the motor speeds so they always arrive where and when they are supposed to.
We have microswitches at the top and reed switches elsewhere as the cars must slow down before stopping.
The bloody cat is eating foam chips.
That cliff get better all the time! nice to see the prototype for comparison as well.
As for the funicular I can see it'll be fun! Been trying to think of a solution but drawn a blank so far!
If only. If it was, I would have eaten all the marzipan! There are more pointed rocks to be added to the beach but this will be done later. Tomorrow we continue the nightmare. What you are seeing so far is the rough carving using a spade bit (with the point removed) on a drill. The next step is slow, using Dremel tools. Rusted broken bits of the Glenthorne Oak will lie between the rocks BTW.
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Love these photos John. Super lighting.
It's certainly picturesque, or at least it is without someone plonking a lido and a funicular in the middle of it :P
I wonder if the car in the top photo is the one that belonged to the Butlins DJ who careered off there, it was all over the local news for quite a while.
There you are Tom. Environmental vandels again. I think that photo is about the DJ if I recall rightly. Of course, many developments in the 1930s would never be allowed now.I must say though, those cliffs are actually inaccessible except by boat.
I also have a CD of photos tyaken from the air but cannot publish them.
Modelling a coast like that will take a lot of carving. It reminds me of SW Ireland. Even the car they ran off the cliff - the same is done on some of the offshore islands there.
Indeed, but I never chose easy subjects.
The stepped rear of the foam is carved and sanded smooth (even worse mess). It is then coated with a thin coat of resin and dry micro and then one layer of BID is laminated across it to integrate the cliffs to give them strength. This is the Rutan method of aircraft building.
So its actually an airplane's wing in disguise then... ;D
It'll never fly... ;D ;D
Only because that railway that's on it creates too much drag... ;)
Put on a big enough and anything will fly
Quote from: pilotfriend on March 06, 2012, 15:49
Put on a big enough and anything will fly
Engine? ;D
Quote from: pilotfriend on March 06, 2012, 07:38
There you are Tom. Environmental vandels again.
I'm only joking :)
It'll be interesting to se how you go about capturing the geology of it as you progress through painting it all too.
Engine. er yes. Tom I know you are only joking..... even I have been known to have a sense of humour now and then ;D
The foam build-up continues. We think it would be more fun swallowing galvanised nails than this job! Even the cat has bits of foam stuck to her and Jenny is thinking of running away from home!
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Some of the rock face has been carved and plastered. This shows as the more grey of the cliff.
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I am always very partial to 300hp Lycomings. Cannot go wrong with those.
The plaster coat looks very effective, John.
Thanks Tom. The expanding foam will not carve so there is still more building up near the track. We can only build up three layer of foam at a time and then have to wait for adhesive to go off. I then do more carving and plastering. It also helps to deal with the foam awfulness! Even the cat is covered with bits of foam and Jenny is thinking of running away from home!
We estimate that about two thousand small trees will be needed. More boredom! The cat
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It's looking better and better John. The latest photo of the finished layout is very realistic but I'm not convinced about the backscene ;D
Judging from the overfalls there seems to be an offlying reef. I wonder how it looks in a westerly gale.
I think that the main drawback of building a layout like this may be dawning on you John.
I bet that by the time you finish you will not want to look at another model rock face again for a long time!
Brian Meldon
True but I did know what I was getting into............. fortunately I have patience but do need a whinge now and then! Parts of the coast are protected by outlying rocks but it is certainly not a coast you want to sail close by.
The more I think about it I am sure I have seen this idea on a layout before somewhere in the dim distant past. Basically a hillside with the track running along it about half way up.
I do not think it was a NG layout though and it was a good deal smaller than the layout you are building John but I do recall that it packed away into a box that was no bigger than most
There is a 16mm scale layout on NGRM which is very very similar in appearance to Cliffhanger, it's been going for a few years now but it's an on and off project. It's actually based on the 1:1 scale location I emailed you about a visit to recently, Brian ;)
Quote from: pilotfriend on March 07, 2012, 15:06
Parts of the coast are protected by outlying rocks but it is certainly not a coast you want to sail close by.
True, but it's a spectacular view when you do pass by at a distance - I went on a circular tour behind Waverley from Clevedon to Penarth, Minehead and Porlock. The bit from Minehead to Porlock was spectacular, as is the view from the road when you drive along the top.
Quote from: invercloy on March 07, 2012, 16:11
There is a 16mm scale layout on NGRM which is very very similar in appearance to Cliffhanger, it's been going for a few years now but it's an on and off project.
Yes that must be the one I am thinking of.
Brian Meldon
Quote from: invercloy on March 07, 2012, 16:11
"...I went on a circular tour behind Waverley from Clevedon to Penarth, Minehead and Porlock...."
With apologies to John and all but please indulge me and allow me this one bit of total thread drift. If you ever get the chance to have a voyage on Waverley then for goodness' sake do so. While I was up in Scotland last Easter a group of us from the Comrie Railroad, at the invitation of their Chief Engineer joined her on her shakedown Western Isles cruise from Oban, round Mull and back in - er - 'interesting' seas. A wonderful experience on a beautiful ship. This view which I'm sure you'll like shows her absolutely in her element during our stop-over at Tobermory. And after that interlude, please back to the subject! ;D
"And after that interlude, please back to the subject!"
Not before I fully endorse your comments. A great ship and a bloody good bar!
Apart from my own layouts, in the past seven years I have also built 7 complex layouts for clients and a host of museum models. Cliffhanger will be absolutely my 'last hurrah' as health is getting in the way these days. That is why I want it to be a bit special.
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The plastering has gone on apace. The bottom of the cliffs will be done when the board is raised a couple of feet.
The cliffs are now complete to the sea on this section.
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That is certainly looking impressive - I like the scree deposits.
I have a lot more lightweight scree to make. It is made of the 'right kind of foam chips' covered in thin polyfilla. One waits for the exact moment when one can break up the mess with ones fingers (just before the Polyfilla goes off) Doing it this way is important as the scree will take paint in the same way as the rock.
TedP has concerns about storms in this area. Here is an extract.
Exmoor has an exceptionally wooded coastline
Exmoor has the most extensive broadleaved coastal woods in Britain. Woods stretch along ten miles of cliff from Countisbury to Porlock. Parts are ancient sessile oak woodland and are amongst the most natural woodland in England. Elsewhere strong salt-laden winds prevent the development of coastal woods except around sheltered inlets. On Exmoor the coastline is sheltered from the prevailing south westerly winds by the high cliffs and the Foreland shelters the eastern part of the coast from most strong winds sweeping up the channel. On the gentler parts of the cliffs trees sweep right down onto the beach.
Exmoor has the highest sea cliffs on the British Mainland
Exmoor has the highest coastline on the British mainland. It reaches a height of 314 metres (1350ft) at Culbone Hill. However, here the crest of the coastal ridge of hills is more than a mile from the sea. If a cliff is defined as having a slope greater than 60 degrees, the highest cliff on mainland Britain is on Great Hangman near Combe Martin. The coastal hill is 318 metres (1043 ft) high with a cliff face of 250 metres (800ft).
Exmoor has the highest and lowest tides in Europe
The Bristol Channel has the second highest tidal range in the world after the Bay of Fundy in Canada, where the difference between high and low tide ranges up to 50ft. Locally the difference varies considerably with the phases of the moon, weather and along the coast, with the range generally increasing eastwards as far as Hinkley Point, where the highest recorded ranges have been up to 45ft. Mean spring tides on the Exmoor coast range from 8.4 metres at Combe Martin to 8.7 metres at Lynmouth, 8.0 metres at Glenthorne, 9.3 metres at Porlock Weir and 9.6 metres at Minehead. The highest tides are greater than these means, especially if backed by strong winds and the extra height of the highest tides increases roughly in proportion with the range so that the highest tides can reach well over 10 metres, especially in the east.
There are high waterfalls on the sea cliffs
Hollow Brook at Martinhoe is arguably the highest waterfall in the West Country and amongst the highest in Britain, depending on the definition of a waterfall. It drops 200 metres to the sea in a series of cascades over a horizontal distance of 400 metres and includes two nearly vertical leaps of 50 metres each. Coastal waterfalls are common on the North Devon and Exmoor coasts but rare elsewhere in Europe apart from in the fjords of Norway.
It certainly is an impressive coastline - as is your interpretation of it. I cannot wait to see it painted, although I wonder why you didn't colour the plaster shell to prevent white shining through in case of light damage.
The tidal range in the Bristol Channel is huge. This must be one of the causes of the tidal wave running up the Severn river.
I think you once mentioned offlying reefs protecting the bottom station of the cliff railway in case of strong westerly winds. I think we can take modeller's licence on that account, but in practice it may well be that the swell curves round the coast, giving this area a nasty time despite it being sheltered from the wind. I know of a seemingly secluded place on the southern shore of the Kenmare River in SW Ireland, 10 or more miles from the ocean, but if a swell comes in, the breakers will run into a cave running under a low hill. At the inner mouth of the cave there is a shingle beach that isn't there for nothing.
Part of the reason for the Severn Bore that you mention is the flow resistance of the river running out, tending to resist the incoming tide. Powerfull yet beautifull stuff isn't it.
I'm really enjoying "Cliffhanger". Mike
There actually are outlying reefs but where the trees go down very close to the sea, it is indeed protected from big waves. The oak trees cannot live with salt. This is a very rare situation on the UK coastline ....... more like the Baltic. It extends from Countisbury head to Porlock.
I do not colour my plaster because I find it distracts me from the job in hand.... can't tell you why, but it does. I like to use very thin colour washes when painting starts which takes much better onto white. If there is any damage, the layout would be covered in blood from the miscreant so we would have to touch up with paint anyway! :o
The plastering will be finished within the week and we can have a massive cleanup.
The 'vision' approaches. The smooth sections will be dense sessile oak trees.
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It certainly is looking very impressive, and ever so imposing, even now (to be fair it was a monster with just the trackbed!). I'm looking forward to Warley, to meet this up close!
Cheers
J
The photo at the top of this page look very like a snow scene; all it needs is a plough train!
The right hand board is now complete and carved. Two more days of hell. 41 bags of foam chips for the bin men. Yes, I have left a big tip!
Quote from: hughn on March 12, 2012, 17:08
The photo at the top of this page look very like a snow scene; all it needs is a plough train!
Now let me think - who do we know with a snowplow?
Can't imagine!
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We have a new spring garden right now. Snowdrops and bits of foam.
Remind me, the wonderfull thing about Tiggers is................ :laugh:
A few great more days in the fun factory. We have almost given up the will to live! The right hand board is now fully plastered and the other two days away..... at last!
Waterfall Gorge board is now fully plastered and the Lido board has been completed along the lower section. The Lido will be built later. The smooth areas will be wooded.
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There is just the cutting above the tracks and the wooded area to complete now. The boards are interchanged for now for access reasons. The site of the future lido is clear.
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Much of the funicular will also be wooded.
Looking good - faintly reminiscent of the 'French Gulch' area on the G&D.
All the carving and plastering is now complete and we have made a start on the oak trees. Most are blobs of expanding foam which grow to perfect proportions. Once hard, a small amount of pruning is needed, then paint and scatter. Only about two lines of 'proper trees are needed to complete the picture. If we are hungry, all we need is some cream and we have endless meringues!
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Now that's CHEATING!!! I like it very much. Just trying to think of anywhere I can use that technique on the L&TR!!!
That's an interesting technique. Intrigued to see how you treat them.
My very own contribution to railway modelling!
That is one of the reasons I like to start off carving forms in white. Colours do not distract and you see shapes for what they really are. I first used it on a museum diorama which had a lot of topography which was held together with expanding foam, just like this one.
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Exceptionally convincing John. Just been comparing it with a couple of the prototype photos on this thread!
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From Google Earth. I am not sure whether the Rhodos would be there in 1935
We are now at the 'oh my God phase'. Jenny says it looks like a giant sheep! It will take one day to 'prune' it using rotary wire brushes in a Dremel and then I guess two days to coat and detail it. There are still a lot of 'real trees' to be added of course but that happens after the rocks are complete.
The composition is working well for my taste. I think it will be the largest 'forest' on the exhibition circuit!
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Most impressive. I like the foam technique - I'm looking forward to seeing this oak 'rain forest' grow.
Jenny is right, it does look like a sheep! :D
I think I prefer it to look like a sheep rather than a 'Far West' layout.
That is at one-and-the-same-time genius and obvious. Great work!
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'Real trees' will front the meringues!
Quote from: pilotfriend on March 20, 2012, 16:24
"...The composition is working well for my taste..."
Indeed it is - it's looking about right although at this stage there's still a bit of the 'approaching avalanche'! Looking forward to seeing the finished hillside.
This is 2ft of completed section of meringues with a light 'real tree topping' which give definition and shading.
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Good morning.
I can't wait to see this finnished, what a novel but wonderful way to create a forest, well done sir.
Regards,
BrianT.
Very effective. Even better than I imagined it would be!
The process is not completely straightforward but hugely quicker than making individual full sized trees/
First, the meringues are covered in Woodland Scenics foliage. We then fluff up the tree tops with WS coarse turf, using a spray glue. The turf is shaped using a thin point. The whole is then lightly sprayed with matt black, just to darken it a little. Coarse turf is then added to the trees to show new growth.
We then quickly make tree tops with sea foam and add these in between. It is about six times faster than making full size trees in sea foam and a lot cheaper.
It won't be long before I can replicate the Photoshopped bridge picture.
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You don't hang around, do you?! :o
The main forest is near completion on this board. There are about 70 tree tops to add and then the forest has to be airbrushed to the correct tones. These is still more painting work on the rocks and detailing at the forest edge and the cliffs. A start has been made on the waterfall. There will be some trees in the gorge.
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The results of your meringues look great, John. I'll have to remember that trick for the future.
Don't forget the whipped cream
I have suddenly become very allergic to hair spray. From now on, I am fixing the foliage with dilute PVA sprayed on with a mister.
Absolutely wonderful. It looks like a real forest. And I like the rock colouring.
I agree using water-based products will reduce the risk of allergic reactions. I'd add a tiny bit of washing up liquid to the solution, it will soak into the foliage better.
I have indeed used a few drops of detergent. We are on to plant detailing tomorrow.
We still have a few tree tops to add to the forest but have to wait for more materials. In the meantime, the waterfall is advancing well and the planting in the gorge can be completed. This bit took 4 hours! I am using silicone sealant and introduce white where required. There is a tiny window of opportunity when the sealant goes stringy so one does very little at a time. Here, the bridge is covered with stray scatter.
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Following the 009 News comments about this forum, I feel it will be safer to continue to post progress on this layout on my own website and another forum as I seem to have been one of the 'offenders' that promoted this aggressive, heavy handed, unpleasant and unnecessary outburst. I am beginning to feel that the new 009 Inc. is not for me.
http://www.009.cd2.com/cliffhanger/news.htm (http://www.009.cd2.com/cliffhanger/news.htm)
or on the forum Narrow Gauge and Branchline Modelling http://www.009.cd2.com/phpBB3/index.php (http://www.009.cd2.com/phpBB3/index.php)
Frankly, the article might just as well have put my head on a pike in front of the 009 new corporate offices. ???
I am therefore locking the thread. It is unlikely that I shall ever be able to tow the 'party line'.
My first book on scenic modelling comes out next year if anybody here is interested.