Hi, I'm new to 009 scale. I'm wondering if you can have both 009 and HOe stock in the same train - are the couplings compatible and does it look right? I know that HOe and 009 work on the same track, but otherwise I've got no idea on the subject. Has anyone experienced any difficulties? I would be grateful for any advice.
Generally speaking you can run them together. (You get big H09 stuff and small 009 stuff). And a lot of folk do...
Most of the hook-and-loop type couplings will inter-couple OK.
That's a rough and ready summary!
One thing to watch is doors on passenger stock. Even then it can be uncertain as some British prototypes are very much 'duck under' access and some continental stock is palatial by comparison. Then there is the matter of whether the passenger stock was intended for whoever had the misfortune to have to travel on it from A to B in it or whether it was to convey passengers in some comfort.
You might get away with mixing OO and HO or you might get away with running a train of OO coaches and one of HO scale, but not a mixed rake or you might not get away with seeing an OO and an HO train side by side.
I think that with goods stock it is less of an issue as there are so many loading gauges amongst prototypes that they come in a wide range of sizes. The size or coarseness of details is possibly more affected by the vintage and style of the model than the scale. When models were billed as OO/HO scale they were not kidding.
It is all about what looks ok and what does not.
For example it does not look good sitting a Minittrains US army Baldwin 2-6-2 that is H0 scale next to a Bachmann war department Baldwin 4-6-0 that is 00 scale. They should be the same size, but the Minitrains item is somewhat smaller.
However, mixing locos of different types does in the most part look ok, and some H0e manufactures items have been made over scale anyway, the classic example is the old Jouef Deceauville loco that is about 6mm to the foot scale!
There are some other perhaps unexpected things to watch out for, the Peco Janette and James kits are sold as 00 4mm scale, but were actualy originaly TTn3 3mm scale! This is why the cabs are too small for 00 or even H0 crew! Yet almost all of these are used on 009, 4mm scale layouts.
In reguard to couplings all ready to run manufactures both 009 and H0e use the loop and pin so called 'Bemo'type cpupling. The problem is they are often set at different heights, this happens even within some manufactures own ranges. There are also some that have loops that are not deep enough to go over pins on the next vehicle. If you just have trains going round and round this is not an issue as they can all couple tigether with manual intervention. However, if you want shuntting and need the locos to run round the trains without having to hold the items then all the couplings will need to couple to all the others and in many cases this will require modifications to the couplings on some of the ready to run items.
As others have said there are 2 parts to this - the mechanical and the physical.
Mechanically the track gauge (and sleeper spacing) is the same. The couplings are generally of the same type - central buffer with upright pin and a pivoted loop that hooks onto the pin of the next coupling. The only issues is (as Brian alludes to above) is where manufacturers are using their own standard height above the rail, or how different manufacturers have interpreted the same (NEM?) standard.
Next is the physical aspect. HOe - in fact all HO scale models - are 87 times smaller than the real thing (works out at 3.5 mm to one foot). 009, like all OO scale models, are 76 times smaller than the real thing (works out at 4 mm to one foot). To make a comparison a 6' tall human will be 21 mm tall in HO and 24mm tall in OO.
BUT most HOe models are of 760mm gauge (2'6") railways with a much bigger loading gauge than (say) the 2' gauge Ffestiniog railway, and generally UK raiwlays have a smaller loading gauge than their overseas counterparts. Coming back to those human figures again, our 21mm tall chap might pass for someone 5' 3" tall on an 009 layout, and similarly HOe 2' 6" gauge stock can pass for slightly smaller 2' gauge stock when going from HO to OO.
But there are times when it does not look right. Small HO vans and coaches when placed in an OO scale scene often look to have doorways too small to admit normal people, and the same can apply to cab entrances on locos and doorways to houses.
Quote from: JulienW on February 03, 2025, 09:46The couplings are generally of the same type - central buffer with upright pin and a pivoted loop that hooks onto the pin of the next coupling. The only issues is (as Brian alludes to above) is where manufacturers are using their own standard height above the rail, or how different manufacturers have interpreted the same (NEM?) standard.
Alas, there doesn't seem to be an NEM standard for 009/HOe couplings. Several manufacturers use the N-gauge NEM 355 sockets for their couplings. This is good as it makes coupling replacement very easy, should you wish to use a different type (maybe Greenwich or Dapol) or if you don't like a particular coupling (I find Bachmann/Liliput ones less susceptible to breakaways than Peco).
However, even with a very clear standard to follow, there is still variation in implementation of the NEM socket. The horizontal centre line of the socket should be 4mm above rail level with a 0.1mm tolerance. This is not always what you get (looking at you, Peco).
That was more of a rant than I intended it to be! I apologise, but only slightly.
Ian
Quote from: Ian McAulay on February 03, 2025, 17:31Alas, there doesn't seem to be an NEM standard for 009/HOe couplings. Several manufacturers use the N-gauge NEM 355 sockets for their couplings. This is good as it makes coupling replacement very easy, should you wish to use a different type (maybe Greenwich or Dapol) or if you don't like a particular coupling (I find Bachmann/Liliput ones less susceptible to breakaways than Peco).
However, even with a very clear standard to follow, there is still variation in implementation of the NEM socket. The horizontal centre line of the socket should be 4mm above rail level with a 0.1mm tolerance. This is not always what you get (looking at you, Peco).
That was more of a rant than I intended it to be! I apologise, but only slightly.
Ian
There is also an issue with many of the couplings in NEM pockets in that the couplings tend to droop down towards the loop as there is slight vertical play in the NEM pocket. This often makes the end of the loop too low and the angle they droop can also prevent the loop from lifting on the next vehicle without manual intervention.
The coupling loops need to be horizontal and to strike on the slopping face of the pin on the next coupling to work properly, if they droop down then they often will not lift on the next vehicle becaue of one or both these reasons.
Because if this I have found the the NEM pockets have made the 009/H0e coupling sitiation worse not better!
Some years ago now I measured the distance from the rail head to the underside of the loop measured this on some of the ready to run items.
Roco:Small four wheel wagons: 5.8mm (This is what I use as a guide as they can not be changed)
Larger bogie wagons: 5.8mm
Egger-bahn:Four wheel trucks: 5.8mm (1963 onwards, first to use these couplings)
Four wheel vans: 5.8mm
Four wheel bogie coaches and wagons: 5.8mm
Tram coaches: (Bogies mae by Lima) 5.8mm
Locos: 5.8mm (No loop fitted.)
Jouef:Decauville V Skip: 4.4mm
Decauville toastrack coach and log wagon: 5mm
Bemo:5.8mm. (Others will need to confirm this as I do not have many Bemo items with the original couplings.)
Liliput:5.8mm (Note the couplings tend to start to sag over time in the pivot on the four wheel coaches and wagons and even more in the later NEM socket.)
Tillig: 6.3mm. (Measured on the locos that do not have a loop.)
New Minitrains:Wagons and coaches: 5.8mm
Locos: Most are higher than 6mm, but as I have altered all my ones I can not measure them now!
It's already been mentioned that there are many occasions where both HOe (1/87 scale 3.5mm to the foot) can happily sit alongside 009 (1/76 scale 4mm to the foot) and it is not unusualf that a model in the smaller scale can be larger than one in the larger scale even though they may be of similar "genres" without silly comparisons such as comparing an HOe Leek and Manifold Kitson 2-6-4T with an 009 Kerr Stuart Pixie 0-4-0T.
For interest, here's a snap I just took of two ready to run "small 0-4-0" HOe/009 locos: Minitrains Stainz Number 2 0-4-0T loco in 3.5mm scale alongside a Bachmann Britomart Quarry Hunslet in 4mm scale.
(https://forum.009society.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FdxPVxBh.jpg&hash=b506f1952974795bb5d9957e4656b0900549565c) (https://imgur.com/dxPVxBh)
Just in case anyone might be interested, the Minitrains Stainz is fairly scarce and is a more detailed version of the more common Minitrains Krauss loco, which in turn is a modern-ish model that is very similar to the ancient Eggerbahn blue loco number 5. According to the Gaugemaster website, there is ONE Stainz loco in stock at the moment price £140. Bachmann 009 Quarry Hunslets (2 open cabbed and 3 cabbed versions) are very difficult to find at present, Britomart being the first one issued is almost hens teeth so good luck for finding one of these, but who knows, there may be new batches or new versions in the future!
Mick
It looks like Dundas also have sticks of the Stainz loco:
https://dundasmodels.co.uk/webstore/index.php/store-categories/product/6487-krauss-0-4-0-steam-loco-no-2-modelled-on-a-steiermarkische-landesbahn-loco-new
Thanks Brian, I never thought to check Dundas out - and a fair bit cheaper than Gaugemaster as well!
Thanks for the info! You were all really helpful. Thanks again!
This is very interesting thread, and thank you, JGil, for starting it!
The question of scale, versus (prototype) size has been very clearly explained.
I just keep the different scales apart from each other. (Incidentally, the Peco/Kato 'Large England' in its fictitious 'Southern' livery is a welcome addition to the L&BR roster, but doesn't look right with that line's coaches. That's a question of loading gauge).
One consideration is the question of loco crews. I recently discovered that the Minitrains Bagnall, with its high cab, can take a 1:76 figure by Modelu – though the vestigial footplate of these locos means that it has to be a figure simply standing on the edge of the cab, looking forward or behind. I placed a figure on the footplate of a photo of a prototype by moving a porter from the platform into a position alongside the Bagnall's cab – the fit seemed exactly right.
Other Minitrains locos, such as the Decauville 'Progress' might just about take a 1:87 (HO) figure, but the motor makes that a difficult proposition – I've not attempted it yet, and have to imagine that the driver and fireman are busy elsewhere in the cab. (If you don't turn locos on your layout, that's not problem!).
Russell