Has anyone thoughts on the above? Fourdees loco's (which obviously are a higher price than the rest) versus Bachmann, Peco, others. It's the quality of the build, the smooth running and the reliability etc that I'm interested in (not the actual model of loco). In a broad sense are Fourdees worth the extra investment in terms of cost? Thanks.
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May I politely suggest that the basic premise of this question is incorrect?
[1] Yes, some Fourdees RTR locomotives may be more expensive that Bachmann, Peco, and others.
[2] But some of the Fourdees kits are cheaper. In some instances one might say considerably cheaper.
I specifically refer to the range of kits for skirted tramway locomotives that sell for £24.99 (eg. "Whiting" and "Gelert Bach") and need a KATO 11-109 chassis to power them. These chassis are available for £25 to £30 from various UK sources, or possibly less if imported directly from Japan.
CP
Quote from: cp.409067 on June 29, 2024, 20:03*
May I politely suggest that the basic premise of this question is incorrect?
CP
I quite agree.
Bachmann and the like have the advantage of being able to access Chinese production facilities where labour costs are much less than in the west where various labour laws (including things like minimum wage requirements, national insurance payments, basic worker health and safety and the like) apply.
Fourdees on the other hand is (as far as I know) a 'one man band' based in the UK building their own 3d printed kits (some of which are available to buy as kits to build yourself), and as such has much higher overheads to meet (having to comply with all those laws for a start!).
Both businesses models have their advantages and disadvantages (whether running the business, being an employee or the customer).
Both manufacturers have had some quality issues, but both have addressed these - Bachmann will more often supply a replacement under their manufacturer's warranty whereas Fourdees seem to undertake repairs rather than replacement (under the same type of warranty).
I should add that if you are buying 2nd hand it's unlikely that such warranties would be available, and that any repairs by the respective manufacturer would be charged.
So, if you want a Quarry Hunslet or Double Fairlie for example then as only Bachmann make them you're better off buying from them. On the other hand if you want a South African or Leek & Manifold 2-6-4T then you're better off getting those from Fourdees (as it's unlikely anyone else will do them in ready to run format).
You could save yourself some cash by buying the Fourdees kits, but be aware that those using the Farish 08 chassis will need you to make and fit the valve gear and cylinders, and if you get it wrong whilst building it's your problem (not anyone else's) to fix it. On that basis if you don't feel you have the skills it may be worth paying the extra for the ready to run version. When it comes to those using the Kato chassis (either the tram or the England chassis) these need less (no?) modifications so would be easier to build yourself.
There is one advantage in making your own kit (not just those from Forudees) - you can paint it whatever colour you like and apply any name to it to make it unique. That's not to say you can't do the same with a Bachmann loco, but it may take some courage to take a £140+ Bachmann loco, take the body off and drop it in the paint stripper...
Thanks for the replies.
cp, I note your comment re the basic premise being incorrect but in the context of my question it isn't. I deliberately didn't mention kits in my first post as I'm not interested in them. Hence my use of 'loco' was for the finished article and a like for like comparison with Bachmann/Peco equivalents even if they aren't exactly the same model. I carefully worded the post to ask about the quality of the build, the smooth running and the reliability which of course excludes kits as they do not initially have those particular attributes being separate entities. I totally agree that some of the Fourdees loco's are more expensive but the question is; are they worth that additional expense?
Julien, some good points there. But should we be endeavouring, when we have the opportunity and even if the cost is a little more, to support our home grown businesses rather than any overseas manufacturer? Obviously there will be times when you don't have an option and I do understand that if you want a specific loco then there may be only one choice of brand.
I have had the pleasure of running my own customer facing business for many many years and therefore can appreciate both sides of the coin, the business owner and the customer. There are great moments and some 'trying' moments as well and I don't regret it for one second!
So, putting aside all the considerations of manufacturer etc, the question still hangs in the air; Do folk consider that Fourdees models are worth the extra cost just in terms of the build, running etc? Or is there really no clear answer to this one.
Perhaps some folks have experience of buying for Fourdees or owning one of their loco's?
All thoughts gratefully received, thanks.
Hi Andy,
I don't believe you have made fair comparisons between major commercial manufacturers and cottage industry manufacturers serving the hobby, but not so much the high street!
The problem here is that you are trying to compare commercial large manufacturers such as Bachmann, Peco/Kato/Heljan etc who have supported narrow gauge model railways over the past decade with cottage industry small firms and have cited Fourdees as the comparator.
Those who have been in this niche end of the hobby for a while would also include Paul Windle as a one man loco building "firm", who would (and still does as far as I am aware) scratch build a loco using a commercial mechanism for customers) As far back as 2009 he produced his 1000th model for a customer, as well probably of quite a lot of skilled cottage industry people who have utilised the vastly improved 3D printing processes in recent years to manufacture and sell a very wide range of narrow gauge items, predominately in 009 and 09 but other scale combinations as well.
The commonality with all of the small manufacturers here (and I am omitting all the kit manufacturers in line with your statement that you are only interested in ready to run complete models) is that they will provide finished bodies in various materiels and via various manufacturing methods - (3D, resin casting, whitemetal, etched brass, scratch plastic or metal etc) but all will use mainstream commercial mechanisms such as the Bachmann USA Thomas range, Bachmann, Kato, Tomytech, Grafar etc)
The large commercial manufacturers of course have their own mechanisms and as you are aware, will produce manufacturing runs of between hundreds and thousands, whilst the cottage industry guys will build individually to order. and there lies the difference. It is a bit like trying to compare the justification and expense of going to a Michelen starred restaurant and using
the local chippy - not to say that a lot of local chippy's do not provide the quality, it is not appropriate to compare items that are so far apart in the spectrum of things.
As to expense of items, that is very subjective and the cost of something is basically what the customer is prepared to pay. A Bachmann Quarry Hunslet or a Kato/Peco England will cost somewhere around £150 new, A similar sized Fourdees ready to run will cost between 20 and 50 percent more, but you will get a comparable quality model that is of a much less well known subject so all in all, there isn't much difference!
At the other end of the scale, if you are in the 009 Society you can order a ready to run pre-loved engine that has been serviced and tested, and comes with a return guarantee for between £50 and several hundred - your choice entirely! If you're prepared to take a little risk and do your own servicing you can get a loco for £10 - I bought 2 last week from an 009 Soc sales rummage tray at Steventon, one at £10 and one at £15; they only needed a bit of a clean and lubricating and after 5 minutes on the test track were running like sewing machines!
MickT
Andy, do you want to involve DCC?
QuoteJulien, some good points there. But should we be endeavouring, when we have the opportunity and even if the cost is a little more, to support our home grown businesses rather than any overseas manufacturer? Obviously there will be times when you don't have an option and I do understand that if you want a specific loco then there may be only one choice of brand.
When I last looked Peco was a 'home grown' (UK based) business, in fact I'm pretty sure that most of Peco's products are manufactured in the UK (the England locos are a joint venture with Kato and may be made in Japan?). Bachmann Europe is also an UK based company, even if their products are made elsewhere.
So your concerns are somewhat unfounded.
QuoteSo, putting aside all the considerations of manufacturer etc, the question still hangs in the air; Do folk consider that Fourdees models are worth the extra cost just in terms of the build, running etc? Or is there really no clear answer to this one
There is no clear answer because it is the wrong question. To put your question another way which is 'better' - an off the peg suit from Primark, a similar suit from Marks & Spencer, a 'made to measure' suit from a high street tailor or something 'bespoke' from one of the Saville Row fashion houses?
To answer that we need to define what is meant by 'better'. I would suggest that it may not necessarily be the same as the most expensive...
There is no comparison to make!!
For a start, for now at least, Fourdees do not offer the same prototypes as Bachmann, Peco or Heljan.
But that may well change in the not-too-distant future.
The Fourdees ready to run products are all individually hand made here in the UK and the price reflects the time needed to do this.
The Bachmann, Peco and Heljan products are mass produced in Chinese factories, so again the price reflects this.
All of the ready to run products, Fourdees included, have had some issues with some of their products, so in that respect there is no difference!
Thanks again for the replies. Some 'interesting' comments.
Tom; not including DCC, thanks for that, old school DC here.
Hi MickT; you have made some good comments and have understood the question with your answer in your last but one paragraph, thanks for that. It's interesting to hear that you consider that a loco from Bachmann and a loco from, say, Fourdees are so far apart in the spectrum of things but I see it another way. At the end of the day they are both a ready-to-run loco and serve the same purpose (as are all manufactured loco's). The comparison is about the quality of the product when considering the cost, it may be that a bespoke build may actually not be of the same quality as a mass produced unit or may be of similar quality at a much higher price. It's acceptable to compare the cost and quality of any two items whether that be a meal, a car, new tv, a holiday, whatever, the comparison being made on the individual criteria which is then presented against the cost (or vice versa). This is done all the time in everyday life and is an element of decision making (Govt - which school do we repair when considering the cost, the benefits of the repair and the necessity). And thanks for the mention re the shop, I have used this in the past on a number of occasions and do keep an eye out for 'new' stuff coming on.
BMeldon; thanks for the general comment re issues. But there is a comparison to be made between similar products whether that be Bachmann, Peco, Fourdees, whoever (see above). I remember all the negative comments, in the past, about some of the Helijan stock and running issues and how people thought that they weren't worth the price being asked because of this. So comparisons can be made (at this time Helijan weren't comparable to their competitors) and always will be!
General; I take the point re large companies and manufacturing but it is worth noting that it shouldn't always be assumed that it is cheaper to manufacture and then sell in large quantities. Small businesses are able to trade more profitably (on percentage; turnover vs overheads), With regard to product made in China then there is no doubt that manufacture will be cheaper but it's not all about that. On top of the manufacturing cost the company has to pay for a manufacturing plant, the maintenance of that, the rent if it leased, the cost of shipping goods worldwide, paying for extensive marketing, allowing for margins for a dealer network, paying the cost of multiple offices and the staff amongst other things. I've been involved with multi-national companies manufacturing and selling across the globe and with small business focusing on a local market and cutting out the middle man by selling direct. Small business can compete competitively and effectively on all fronts, there is no doubt. And product can be as good and sometimes more so than the mass produced item.
JulienW; you seem to have missed the essence of the post completely. You may think it is the wrong question but it is my valid question. And 'better' isn't mentioned in the question that I asked; the question is quite simply summed up in my last post which you copied and pasted into your reply - "Do folk consider that Fourdees models are worth the extra cost just in terms of the build, running etc?" You make a comparison with clothing and by doing so you have just 'opened' yourself up to, and asked, exactly the same question I am asking; is a bespoke suit from a Saville Row tailor worth the extra cost versus an off the peg suit? The answer is who knows and that's why the question is asked. So I have no idea where you are going with your replies!
Anyway I'm going to lock this subject now as I really don't think it's worth pursuing any more.