Folks,
My next layout is likely to need a couple of curved turnouts. In the absence of anything of the shelf I think I have two options;
Scratch build - which I have done before
Bash some Peco n gauge - using the geometry etc. replacing all the sleepers
Both lead me down the copperhead route, unless anyone can point me to wood sleeper options?
Plus anyone's experienced views would be welcomed.
Cheers in advance,
Giles
https://www.littlehimalayanrailway.uk/ (https://www.littlehimalayanrailway.uk/)
Hi Giles, years ago I decided I was going to hand lay all my track using wood sleepers, spikes and anything else that would give that very authentic look to my small lay out. Well I did give it a go and it did look nice, but my hand built/laid turnouts were a total flop.
In the end I settled for copper clad sleepers and my problem was solve. Now I just build my turnouts to fit the location.
Robin.
I have not tried it, but I have seen a half-way house approach with sufficient copper-clad sleepers soldered in place to maintain geometry and what are effectively cosmetic spiked wooden sleepers in between.
Something I would like to try (someday, maybe never and probably only for photo plank's worth of track) is a variant on what I understand is the Peter Kazer approach to track laying. It would involve soldering Peco Code 55 rail to copper-clad sleepers and then painstakingly inserting cosmetic sleepers in three pieces for each sleeper - between and either side of the rails.
The Peter Katzer method as I understand it is to solder the rail to studs that raise the rail bottom off the trackbed or baseboard by the depth of a sleeper and sleepers then slid under the rail.
Graeme, personally I would avoid using the Peco code 55 rail from their N scale track as it has a 'double foot' that is buried in the plastic sleepers and the overall rail height is the same as Code 80.
That being said I have used 'proper' code 55 steel rail for my (stalled) rebuild of Latham's Brewery which I purchased from C&L. I've just checked their website (https://www.clfinescale.co.uk/online-store/Rail-Products-c32907242%3Fsort%3DnameAsc) and they now do nickle silver Code 55 FB as well as the steel.
Quote from: Giles Perkins on March 08, 2024, 15:26Plus anyone's experienced views would be welcomed.
I've got on very well with the templates produced by Keith Angus, which are based on Peco geometry but with a much wider range of radii, etc. I also ended up splicing prints together to make such exotic things as unequal Y points and 3 way points and slitting the templates to alter the radii of the curved points.
If you would like a set of pdf files send me a message with your e-mail address.
Rail was Code 55 steel from C&L (see earlier post) but I've also used Peco code 80 rail stripped from damaged / previously used flexi-track, Peco code 60 (their OO scale 'conductor rail' for Southern electrics etc.) and some Code 40 (from the 2mm Association but also available from C&L).
The copper clad sleepers came from 3mm SMR (https://www.3smr.co.uk/track.html) - the TT scale sleepers look OK for 009 use on plain track (though the page says they are out of stock of the big bags) and one of the sets of 'point timbering' (twenty 10" lengths) will also be useful.
Julien
I will be honest that it may well be a lot easier to re-plan your layout so that you can use the normal electrofrog Peco 009 points.
The main issue with curved points is that the angle of the frog is small so the gap between the point of the V and the checkrail connected to the blades is quite long and smaller 009 wheels will just drop down the gap.
If you build it yourself, it can be done if you use fine scale checkrail gaps, but that requires fine scale wheels on all items and many 009 items just will not fit.
In general it is very dificult to get good running for 009 in any curved points.
Quote from: JulienW on March 10, 2024, 16:22Graeme, personally I would avoid using the Peco code 55 rail from their N scale track as it has a 'double foot' that is buried in the plastic sleepers and the overall rail height is the same as Code 80.
That being said I have used 'proper' code 55 steel rail for my (stalled) rebuild of Latham's Brewery which I purchased from C&L. I've just checked their website (https://www.clfinescale.co.uk/online-store/Rail-Products-c32907242%3Fsort%3DnameAsc) and they now do nickle silver Code 55 FB as well as the steel.
I know it makes for an unconventional method of construction (and somewhat fiddly) but the foot of the Code 55 rail is key to it.
It means potentially ugly solder joins are buried and the functional sleepers can be at any convenient spacing and of any convenient size. The price that is paid is that the cosmetic sleepers have to be laid in three pieces between the rails and either side, and lined up sufficiently accurately so as not to destroy the illusion that they are one piece.
Peter Kazer's method of construction is simpler in that respect in that cosmetic sleepers can be slid under the rails, but more complex in that the functional sleepers need to be drilled and fitted with studs to raise the rail above the track base.
Another possibility for 009 curved points is to use Tillig HOe points (https://railsofsheffield.com/products/tillig-85638-tillig-elite-track-left-turnout-hoe-narrow-gauge?variant=39947035738303¤cy=GBP&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=google%2Bshopping&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA0bWvBhBjEiwAtEsoW20jlDFQEmtZn_ttjjQvvii2ciMO-4c8C1cWwJJaVho5fidl06JUgRoCrO8QAvD_BwE), or to imitate them using Peco ones.
Tillig points (I think that's the correct company) are slightly flexible and can be bent to a small degree as can be seen (by the looks of it) on the zig-zaggy bellows type rail webbing shown here:
(https://railsofsheffield.com/cdn/shop/products/85638_20-a_1080x.jpg?v=1622681964)
If the webbing of Peco points is cut, a similar effect can be had. Goodness knows what it does to the gauge and geometry and there is a limit as to how far it can be taken (as I found out!*) but I've heard from others that it can be used to remove the dead straight look. It is perhaps best or only suitable for improving the look and 'flow' of the track than to achieve a marked curved track geometry.
* I popped the tie bar out and broke the plastic holding it to the switch rails. Fortunately it was a second hand point I experimented with.
Quote from: GraemeD on March 10, 2024, 18:10Another possibility for 009 curved points is to use Tillig HOe points (https://railsofsheffield.com/products/tillig-85638-tillig-elite-track-left-turnout-hoe-narrow-gauge?variant=39947035738303¤cy=GBP&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=google%2Bshopping&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA0bWvBhBjEiwAtEsoW20jlDFQEmtZn_ttjjQvvii2ciMO-4c8C1cWwJJaVho5fidl06JUgRoCrO8QAvD_BwE), or to imitate them using Peco ones.
There are some issues I have found with the Tillig points:
They are somewhat less robust than the Peco points.
The check rails at the frog are not powered so there is a plastic section that does not power the wheels, this can make some locos stall at slow speeds.
The blades do not lock in position so some other external form of blade locking is required.
Quote from: GraemeD on March 10, 2024, 17:47Quote from: JulienW on March 10, 2024, 16:22Graeme, personally I would avoid using the Peco code 55 rail from their N scale track as it has a 'double foot' that is buried in the plastic sleepers and the overall rail height is the same as Code 80.
That being said I have used 'proper' code 55 steel rail for my (stalled) rebuild of Latham's Brewery which I purchased from C&L. I've just checked their website (https://www.clfinescale.co.uk/online-store/Rail-Products-c32907242%3Fsort%3DnameAsc) and they now do nickle silver Code 55 FB as well as the steel.
I know it makes for an unconventional method of construction (and somewhat fiddly) but the foot of the Code 55 rail is key to it.
The main problem with flat bottom code 55 rail use in 009 is that there are quite a lot of older H0e, N and 009 locos and wagons that have wheel flanges that are too deep to clear the sleapers.
Obvioulsy it is ok if you only use fine scale wheels with smaller flanges.
Many thanks all, fantastic suggestions and super useful.
Initially I'm going to go with a combination of all these and try to 'hack' a Peco set track by replacing sleepers and replacing the frog and check rails - noting the issue on gapping.
It's an experiment and I'll report back.
Thanks again,
Giles
https://www.littlehimalayanrailway.uk/ (https://www.littlehimalayanrailway.uk/)
Another option would be to 3D print the sleepers - I've seen this done in H0 to create steel sleeper points that aren't available off the shelf, and there seem to be some being done in TT.
The sleepers are all joined together with thin flat sections that can be ballasted over:
(https://c7.staticflickr.com/9/8022/29175599022_f01c70de33_c.jpg)
And the rails are held in place with separate holders that slot in to the sleepers (on the right in the image), these are initially 3D printed to make a mould and then cast in brass. You could probably just 3D print them in nylon or ABS and that would be sufficient.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1619/25909242966_12f63076ff_z.jpg)
Here is the steel sleeper point in H0 thread - you need to log in to the forum to see photos ~ https://www.kleinbahnsammler.at/wbb2/index.php?thread/14962-stahlschwellenweichen-3d-druck/&pageNo=1
And if you want to go really mad with the detail, this is how far the creator took the steel sleeper point!
Here we go folks, work in progress. Harvested the parts from a Peco ST-44, the copper clad is all done, tested with wagons so far with no dropping thru the frog. Seeing as it's over 40 years since I've done anything like this, I'm quite pleased. Detailing to come.
Update:
Here are a couple of pictures of the almost finished turnout. I've added chairs harvested from Peco 009 track and all works well with all but one ancient bit of stock, but I just need to fettle the frog slightly.
Gentlemn and others
With point construction does atrack spacer exist for 009, or does one have to use 'N' gauge spacer, and wher does one get the thing? For track consrtuction, I know for sure in EM and P4 a triangular 'template' is used, I think one needs three to build a curve. Again, does similar exist for N and/or 009?
I can't speak for the Gentlemen so here is some thoughts from one of the 'others'...
By 'spacer' I assume you mean something for setting the 2 rails the correct distance apart (based on your description of the EM & P4 device). I think the correct term would be 'track gauge'...
There isn't one specifically for 009 because the track gauge of 9mm is the same as that used for N Gauge, which means that we use the same setting gauge. Therefore anything for making your own track in N will be fine for 009.
I have a number of turned brass 'roller' gauges that I've picked up 2nd hand over the years so I can't make any recommendations as to where one might purchase them (but Google will probably find something for you). These are very useful for making points as the groves set both the running rails and the check rails / flange ways.
The 'triangular' gauges are a little harder to come by but I have some from Micro Engineering in the USA (which I bought from a company in Canada that seemed to be better disposed to posting things to the UK than the US sellers I could find at the time).
One thing to note about both types of gauges is that there are a number of different rail sections one can use for making track, and that the groves in the gauges to take the rail head are sized accordingly. Using a gauge for Code 40 rail is unlikely to work as the rails will not fit in the gauge. Conversely a code 40 rail will be a 'sloppy' fit in the groves of a gauge designed for code 75 rail, so unless you are very careful to get the rail in the right place before fixing it's quite easy to build track that is out of gauge.
Ideally you will probably find it best to have 2 of the triangular gauges and 2 or 3 or the roller type, and it's helpful if the latter have parts cut away so you can access the side of the rail when soldering it down to make pointwork.
Is this the sort of thing?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53900480187_c9bd44bcf9_k_d.jpg)
It is a couple of commercial N gauge Code 80 roller gauges and my own 3-point gauge along with (let's call it) a slip gauge.
The 3-point gauge is a scrap of thick brass sheet cut and filed to shape with three small brass slotted head screws and nuts screwed into place and soldered when I was happy with with their position. The slip gauge is just another scrap of brass filed to gauge.
I've forgotten where I got the roller gauges, but they are fairly readily available (DCC concepts, Rails of Sheffield, Wizard Models).
https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/buildings/mntrg/
Fast Tracks sell a three point gauge but I don't know of anyone in the UK.
Essentially, this is what I did:
https://narrowgauge.retiarius.com/making-a-simple-3-point-track-gauge-for-peco-009-track/
Sorry Brian, I have to totally disagree with you about Peco N gauge curved points.
Gairloch &Wester Ross, Loch Ewe, and Tan Yr Allt (all award winning layouts) have used these points with superb running. All these layouts are still going strong, the last two still being exhibited and they are 20 to 30 years old.
The points were not altered in anyway, just made to blend into the scenery.
Stan.