Hello, as you may have read in the 009 News the wonderful layout (formerly Sussex Downs' Evaleight) is now being looked after by me. I am doing my best to preserve it's heritage. But as it's only me who will operate it most of the time (it was previously operated by 4-6 persons at exhibitions) I have now decided that the current fiddle yard (a work of art I have to add and which should be in the 009 Hall Of Fame!) needs to be simplified. I have very little modelling experience, but am learning where I can, and humbly admit that I need help with this. I have s/c holiday accommodation (so someone can stay here) and will happily provide a free holiday here in Cornwall (including partners/friends etc) in lieu or I can pay or a mix of both. A photo is included, any suggestions (maybe traveser?) will be gratefully received, it is just the middle turntable section that is to be simplified and the idea is to reduce the number of tracks in this section although the sidings could also be reduced in number. Apologies if this has gone on a bit but I'd be pleased to chat to another member about this. If anyone is interested in helping or if you know of anyone who may be interested then please let me know. Thank you.
I wonder - is the desire to simplify the fiddle yard purely because you will be operating the layout single-handed or are you needing to do some drastic pruning and rearrangement of the layout to fit its new home?
If you need the space taken up by all that is shown in the photo I imagine that will need care and consideration to ensure that with one operator there is still scope for variety in operation. In some respects it may even be easier to achieve more variety and interest where there is ample storage space. Assuming there is the stock available in the first place, being able to run a sequence of trains will take a lot less effort than potentially having to work hard on a sliding block type puzzle to rearrange stock in limited storage in order to provide variety.
Depending on how long you intend to keep the layout, one thing seems fairly universal: funds allowing, modellers rarely end up with too few locomotives and stock, given time. LAS (Locomotive Acquisition Syndrome) should be a recognised condition that affects many modellers.
Regarding the train turntable, one has merits in both intensive exhibition use and single operator home use. It can save a lot of time in turning trains around.
If you don't need to free up the space then I'd be inclined to work with it as it is for a while.
If you do need the space then it likely that the layout works best if all the routes are accessible whether or not they feed into a single line of storage or six as the train turntable suggests.
I just spent half an hour typing up a very full reply to your request for advice etc and somehow lost the lot, I can't even find it via History, so I will have another go but keep it short this time!!
I think that before you can get some meaningful advice on how and where to proceed with your "challenge" then it would probably be helpful if those that may want to help out are familiar with the layout itself, which you have to admit, is a very big layout indeed!
Fortunately, I had the opportunity to take a large number of photos (nearly 50) of the whole layout when it was exhibited at Expong in 2015. It filled a whole squash court all to itself. I made an overhead photo of the layout (which I have posted here if I can get it to do it!) and suggest that you may like to visit my roving reporter site at: https://micksrovingreporter.blogspot.com/ Scroll back to 2015 and open up the report for Expo NG 31 October 2015. Go to Part 2 of the report and find Photo numbers 171 through to 219 inclusive, which all have comprehensive text captions which take the reader on a guided journey through the whole layout.
I hope this may help both yourself and potential helpers!
One thing to note: the fiddle yard that was being used consisted of large cassettes. Clearly, the train turntable was added at a later stage, I imagine to make operating simpler. Food for thought there in that as Graeme indicated in his posting: a train turntable provides both storage and a simple way of turning trains quickly and easily without risk of disasters!
Good luck! You are a very lucky man, I wish I had room for a great big fully finished layout like this one!
Mick
https://micksrovingreporter.blogspot.com/
(https://forum.009society.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fx3H25zv.jpg&hash=b18ddf121f74e9b7f3af21aa9f4393e9c8b5856f) (https://imgur.com/x3H25zv)
That's an excellent photo Mick! And a very lucky new owner too.
I knew the layout was some size but I didn't realize quite how big and that it wrapped right round. Nor that it was 'fed from the middle' quite like that. I do seem to remember stories of it growing in size though.
I imagine it will be quite a challenge to convert it to fit in a domestic location, viewed from the inside instead of the outside - if that is what is wanted.
Hi Mick and Graeme, thanks to you both for your time and thoughts. The photos taken during the exhibition in 2015 may well be the last time the layout was seen in public. Interestingly in one of the photos there were 7 people operating the layout and therein lies my quandry. The layout doesn't need any pruning re size and fits easily into the space available and it is planned to keep it for as many years as is possible. It is envisaged that it will be mostly run just by myself although it is hoped that there will be times when there are others as well operating parts of the layout independently from the main operation ie shunting. I have been thinking about a group here in Cornwall but it's early days on that idea at the moment. There are other areas on the layout that need to be simplified whilst still maintaining the ability to isolate and operate these separately along with main-line operation being maintained. That will require some amendment to the current electrical system (not a complete re-wire) but I'm just thinking about that as I gather experience with the layout overall. Anyway back to the fiddle yard; it is a great turntable and I do take on board your comments about not rushing into changing it. Maybe it just needs to be kept and be made a lot more user friendly for me. But then I'm still not adverse to changing it, I'd keep the existing one for posterity and try to make any amendment so that the turntable could be re-introduced. A couple of modules were kept by the Sussex Group and so the layout has been extended at that end. I've included a photo of the entire layout whilst it was in the very early stages of being 'brought together'. It looks a lot more complete now with frontboards, backboards, trackwork, some modelling and additional wiring having been done so far but there is still a way to go. The entire track length (just in straight line and not allowing for sidings, spurs, fiddle yard etc) is now about 80 feet (nearly 25m) and it is designed so that a train can be run around the entire length without the need for turning it. If you or anybody has any more thoughts then I'd be pleased to hear about them. Thanks again.
That looks like an amazing setup and I trust it will give many years of pleasure!
I was really taken with train turntables after I saw one (two actually) in operation on an 009 layout built by the Edinburgh and Lothians club - Caerdwyn I think it was.
It was essentially an end to end layout (with a big loop around a lake). The two operators at either end on turntable duty had a relatively easy job receiving and dispatching trains and rotating the turntable on occasion. This meant they had plenty of time to interreact with the public as well as keep a general eye over the layout whist the other operator or operators were concentrating on doing the 'twiddly bits' in the middle with the station and yard.
I guess a situation where a train turntable might be less convenient is if you wanted to include some element of automation or at least control from a remote panel. There a traditional fiddle yard would I guess be easier to control (i.e. points) as opposed to indexing a turntable under remote control. As for turning trains, a balloon loop would be one possibility if there is the space.
There is a plan for an extensive N gauge fiddle yard in one of the Peco track plans booklets that forms the middle of a balloon loop. (Perhaps it is more like half a 'dog bone' loop as it is a double track plan.)
You say it needs to be simplified, but I can't work out what you plan to do (or why).
Looking at the photo of the fiddle yard it looks as though you have 3 through roads (the middle 3). If that is the case - you can run trains across it in a logical way without needing to stop and reset the turntable for the train to continue it's journey - then why change it? Just lock it in place (I'd imagine that there is a way to do this to stop the thing moving whilst running a train on / off) when operating solo. That would still allow it to be moved when you have some friends round for a more intensive running session.
Your posts suggests reducing the number of tracks & sidings, but rather than lift them would it not be simpler to just not use them? Again, this would make it easier to put them back into use by just turning the power on when you have friends round to play trains.
Hope that helps...
Graeme and Julien, thanks for the comments. Julien, just to answer your question as to why I'd like to simplify the turntable; at present it is great for an exhibition with multiple operators and where multiple trains would want to be run but for me, using it on my own, it is complicated with a number of switches (and 2 controllers) that have to be used to control running in and out of sidings and the 2 main lines (there are only 2 main lines, the middle 2, the rest are linked to the sidings on either side but all can be linked to any of the 6 rails!!!). Not being that conversant with the electrics I am hoping that it can be simplified whilst maintaining its operational potential. I don't have to reduce the number of sidings but if that is a possible requirement then I'm happy to consider it and implement if necessary. I hope that makes sense as it's not that easy to explain the turntable operation. I would keep the existing turntable module so that it could be re-introduced if wanted in the future as I am keen to maintain the heritage of the layout as best I can. It may be that the sidings stay as they are and a traverse or similar be introduced. Anyway food for thought!
Thanks Andy. That helps us understand where you are coming from.
I wonder if replacing the turntable with a number of loops would make life easier, especially if point motors were used in such a way that route selection could be done with a single switch or push button...
The drawback with loops is that the points will take up length and may restrict the lengths of trains you can run, but a traverser will still need to be moved by the operator (in much the same way as the current turntable).
Do trains need to be switched from one of the 'main lines' to the other?
Quote from: Andy on March 01, 2024, 12:20Graeme and Julien, thanks for the comments. <snipped>
If the issue is with the complexity of the turntable, then along the lines of Julien's suggestion of using points and loops/sidings, let us say the turntable didn't exist and instead the rail continued across that part of the baseboards to join up just as the photo shows. How would that affect operations?
What, if any, additional storage sidings would be needed and conversely (if the turntable was fixed in the position shown) which if any of the roads would be redundant as being inaccessible?
That could be the simplest simplification, at least as a notional starting point if not an actual change to the wiring - effectively setting up the turntable as if it didn't exist and setting and leaving the switches in one position or bypassing them. The downside is that this simplification may pose too much of a restriction on the operations that are possible so some flexibility, complexity and switching may be need to be added back in. Deciding on that could be a starting point for altering the existing configuration.
Could you eliminate the fiddle yard altogether and run the layout point to point? Fiddle yards aren't always needed, and it sounds like this one is causing operating problems.
Mal.
Quote from: WALLSHIRTS on March 02, 2024, 01:52Could you eliminate the fiddle yard altogether and run the layout point to point? Fiddle yards aren't always needed, and it sounds like this one is causing operating problems.
Mal.
That is a good starting point, though I suspect over time, as with many other layouts and railway empires locomotives and stock will increase beyond the capacity of visible sidings and loops.
People operate layouts in different ways.
One would be to run strictly 'what you see is what you get' and assume that the scenic part is the entire railway line and the stock on show is all the stock the railway possesses. Operations could then be a matter or running to a timetable/schedule and making sure the appropriate trains are assembled and loco coupled up.
Another would be to assume most of this marshalling takes place 'elsewhere' and operation is predominantly a matter of following trains through the layout and being able to call upon a wide selection of trains without the need to halt proceedings to assemble trains on a staging track every time.
I think it is difficult to make suggestions for major alterations without knowing what is really wanted in the long term. Perhaps the best thing is to continue to come up with different suggestions and viewpoints and hopefully one will emerge as the ideal solution.
Hi one and all. Thanks for the interest and thoughts. I certainly think that the idea of loops is interesting, it would depend on, as was said, the length needed to achieve the needed number. The stock already exceeds that which would fit on the existing sidings and so it will be necessary to move stock on and off the fiddle yard area depending on what I fancy running that day. I don't mind doing this as this will provide interest on any particular day as to what is running.
Julien, currently the 2 main lines are basically used as 'up' and 'down' so that trains can be run in opposite directions, I suppose a bit like a loop at a station. And I take the point, well made, re having to move a traverser - doing that that may well be out of the fire into the frying pan!
Graeme, it may well be possible to use a loop system if the boards on either side were to be re-tracked. The current tracks are only pinned down and therefore could be taken up relatively easily and re-laid to accommodate points. It will depend, as I mentioned earlier, of the available length at hand. The turntable couldn't be set up just as if it didn't exist as this would only allow the 2 main lines to operate, all the sidings would be 'outside' the operation and trains would have to be physically taken on and off the 2 main lines. This could be done but would be a lot of phaffing about.
Mal, a good suggestion re point to point and this could certainly be done but would limit me on the number of trains that could be utilised at any time - is this a bad thing, maybe not and worth thinking about. And I've attached a couple of photos to show the extent of the sidings at each 'end' of the layout. At Glassa trains can run beyond the station (incoming is from the direction of the photo around the curve to the station) and return to the fiddle yard area via a hidden tunnel. At Upsands that's it, there is no beyond! Trains could be run to the 2 main lines at the fiddle yard section and could be taken off there and a new train put on. There's definitely scope in this, thinking cap on.
There would still be some re-wiring necessary to achieve this but, not being very au fait with electrics it may not be too extensive.
There's some good thought gone into the suggestions and I'm most grateful to you all for spending your time and effort.