Hi,
I am having problems with ballast.
Specifically that my 2mm Welsh Granite Ballast goes very dark when the conventional water/PVA/washing up liquid process is used to lay it
I was just wondering if anyone knew a way round this - I'd prefer to use this ballast as it is a very good colour. I had thought about not gluing it down (layout is permanent) but I'm concerned about the loose ballast being picked up by locos.
Thanks, any help welcome
Regards
Bob Berry
It's a good question and I shall be interested to hear the answer to as it's something that has always bugged me and I'm about to ballast a pretty long layout.
Have you tried using Copydex instead of PVA? I've recently read somewhere that Copydex (being latex based) is a good subsitute for PVA because it retains a bit of flex and so is far less noisy than rock solid setting PVA. If your colour change problem is caused by the PVA coating the ballast, maybe Copydex may effect it less? If you do try Copydex, I'd be interested in hearing what you think as I'll have some ballasting to do later in August.
Cheers
Eric
Yes, I'd heard that too and bought some Copydex on spec when I saw it in the local art and craft shop though I've not had a chance to try it. (Thinks, now would be a good time to find a short scrap of track and give it a go.)
I am currently pondering how to ballast T gauge flexible track. :-\
I've also heard that adding isopropyl alcohol to water with the usual drop of washing up liquid to pre-wet the ballast is more effective than water and detergent only.
Quote from: berryr99 on July 26, 2010, 19:42
Hi,
I am having problems with ballast.
Specifically that my 2mm Welsh Granite Ballast goes very dark when the conventional water/PVA/washing up liquid process is used to lay it
I was just wondering if anyone knew a way round this - I'd prefer to use this ballast as it is a very good colour. I had thought about not gluing it down (layout is permanent) but I'm concerned about the loose ballast being picked up by locos.
Thanks, any help welcome
Regards
Bob Berry
My first thought is to ask are you using the right mix? You need to be using 1:1 PVA:Water with a couple of drops of washing up liquid or isopropyl alcohol (IPA) to break down the natural surface tension of the water. There are also two types of PVA, polyvynyl acetate (what you want) and polyvinyl alcohol (not what you want).
Another thought is that you may be expieriencing the PVA effectively varnishing the slate and giving it a 'wet' look. You could try using 'matt media' (from artist supply places) which as far as I know is matt PVA and is used for layout work in the US (but will probably put the cost up). Make sure you get the water-based kind!
An alternative would be to use a powdered glue that is water-based (Cascamite?) mixed with the ballast. Put the ballast + glue mix on dry then spray with water with a few drops of washing up liquid or IPA added to wet it and activate the glue. (That tip comes from MRJ)
Interseting about the matt PVA. I've used copydex for glueing down flock powder on layouts for years and its fine for that, although over time it yellows a bit but then so does grass! Never tried it with ballast and I think it might be a bit of a nightmare round points and so on as it doesn't flow and is bit, well, rubbery. being rubber solution glue as they used to call it on Blue Peter!
Thanks for all replies and suggestions
Just to confirm I am using the correct PVA and water mix.
Copydex sounds interesting and probably what I'll try next.
I have picked up the use of cascamite from the Internet and also (I think) the 009 handbook
I will report back on how it goes ..... probably take a while as I have a day job (apparently !)
Regards & thanks for the interest
Bob
All
I am trying Copydex 50/50 with water and a drop of washing up liquid. I'll report back when it has set
Does anyone know where to get Cascamite - I can see it on Amazon but nowhere local (Co Durham)
Thanks
Bob
Possibly a "real" woodworking/joinery shop or a boating supplier. Doubt you'd find it at B&Q, Homebase etc.
Going OT, many many years ago I made casein "plastic" for a home science project (I was a Nurd long before it had a name) - basically soured milk solids. I forget the details. Curing with formaldehyde might have been involved. You could buy test tubes etc from Boots the Chemists when I were a lad.....
I don't suppose Cascamite is made from milk these days, there's probably a synthetic casein.
Edit: I'm starting to doubt my memory having tried searching for information about Cascamite. Maybe it was never milk derived, but the tradename was some sort of reference to earlier casein-based glues.
Further update
The copydex has now dried and overall gives approx 50% less darkening effect than PVA
I tried :
"neat"
50/50 water + washing up liquid
50/50 water
The best result was just 50/50 water and it seemed to spread quite well.
I think I will try Copydex for areas where I want the ballast to look "cleaner" and mayne use PVA (and weather it) for other areas.
Bob B.
Is it too early to tell if the copydex ballasted track is less noisy than the PVA fixed ballast?
Cheers
Eric
Eric
Yes it is a bit early but I found an article on the internet - http://s110605900.websitehome.co.uk/c-noise/index.htm that seems to indicate quieter running is possible.
Noise isn't an issue for me because the "railway room" is remote to everywhere else in the house - I was more trying to get authentic colours on the ballast.
Bit concerned about comments that Copydex yellows over time though.
Bob B
Further update on change of granite colour on application of PVA/Copydex:
I eventually used as dilute an application of PVA: water as would stick and there has still been a change of colour. I covered this with some Sleeper Grime and then, because my layout will never be portable, I put down some loose ballast in strategic areas and it has worked out quite well.
Are there other makes of ballast (Hornby etc) that won't change colour, I wonder ?
Bob
I have recently rejoined the OO9 Society (makes sense since my current layout is O9) and not previously seen this thread.
May I suggest the use of quick drying matt varnish - the sort that says the brush can be washed out in water. Used diluted (to taste) this will hold down all manner of materials and I have successfully used the method for ballast on two layouts (it did not in my experience discolour the mineral used).
CP
Christopher
Thanks
I have never come across this idea before and will now road test.
I'll try a 1:1 dilution at first and see how it goes
Bob Berry
I have used light grey budgie grit! It looks like finely broken sea shells but once sieved to remove the larger pieces it looks good. It is still over scale but gives a nice rustic look that I like. It has the added bonus of being very cheap (no pun intended) and it doesn't matter if it darkens on drying as it was quite light to start with.
Copydex......a real 'rave from the grave'. We used it for the same purpose in the 1950s! Yes, it actually ends up brown with time.
JdF
All
Well it is now some 3 months on since I started to experiment with different types of ballast.
Basically, all granite/slate "real" ballasts seem to change to change colour when using the tried and tested PVA and water process. The one exception to this was on an 009 layout I saw at this year's Doncaster show called "Bryngoch" where the operator (apologies, didn't ask name - very rude, I know) used this ballast with PVA and the colour stayed fast.
I have decided to use Woodland Scenic's products as they are colour fast, its just a case of trying to make the mix correct across a couple of types to get an authentic colour.
Bob
Quote from: berryr99 on February 20, 2011, 14:12I have decided to use Woodland Scenic's products as they are colour fast, its just a case of trying to make the mix correct across a couple of types to get an authentic colour.
While Woodland Scenics ballast doesn't change colour when glued with PVA, it does fade over time, especially when subjected to UV (from daylight and fluoro tubes particularly). I have found it quite difficult to match colours when modifying track and re-ballasting, although admittedly some years later.
Bob, any signs of the colouration of the copydex altering the colour of the ballast now that it's been down for quite a while?
I'm intrigued as I'm using copydex to glueing track to my layout at present, and was wondering about using it for ballast too. It's working fine for the track, just a little concerned about colour alteration when it comes to more visible things like ballast.
Tom,
Its been down about 3-4 months and the section I did is still OK. Not sure that if there was a colour change it would have ocurred by now though
Bob
Great, thanks Bob.
Heard a lot about the Cascamite method but like a lot of people had problems finding it, good news! for anyone wanting to have a go try B&Q.
I picked some up last week and used it to good effect around the points, just mix it dry with your chosen ballast material and spray with luke warm water adding a few drops of washing up liquid, I prefer to use the type we use on the boat as it is clear no colour, more regulations but for our purpose it works well.