I was viewing some old random black and white photos of locomotives blasting out smoke, when the light bulb came on and I thought, "what will happen to all those beautiful old ladies that burn coal or oil" . They put out a lot of black smoke.
Any thoughts on this subject? This is bound to come up if not already. Electric powered steam?
Robin.
They won't be the same without the smell of coal.
According to the Lynton & Barnstaple Trust heritage railways will be :) exempt and can continue using coal, but where will it come from is the next dilemma?
Russia or Poland I expect! I believe that the Heritage lines are looking at doing bulk orders for coal so reducing the costs, some of the NG lines already do that with orders for new rail.
Some people have already attacked heritage railways on environmental grounds.
Yes, clearly steam engines do emit smoke and CO2. However, it's matter of proportion. My guess is that if you added up the total coal consumption of every steam loco in the country (and the UK probably is the worst offender!) - which wouldn't be difficult to do - it would be less than what a coal fired power station gets through in a single day, or maybe even in an hour.
So, (like the use of plastics in modelling) it's a matter of getting the issue into perspective, and I suspect it's a non-issue, especially while cars, ships and planes continue to pump carbon into the atmosphere at anything like the current rate.
As Barry and Blair have already mentioned, sourcing coal is going to be more of a problem in the future - maybe it will be traded on the 'black' market (or dark web)?
David.
And of course it's not only heritage railways that use coal power.
Traction engines, showman's engines and some heritage boats also use coal.
A report I read, but now can't find, said that the amount of C02 emitted by all the coal powered heritage machines was negligible compared to that emitted by oil, petrol and diesel powered vehicles and aircraft.
or compared with one volcano,Andy.
I guess I am getting rather out of step with the world and increasingly not 'politically correct' because I go on steam trains for fun and drive a supercharged V8!
I'm with you Brian. I also go on steam trains for fun and the more the merrier! (although I don't have a supercharged V8 ;D )
As for being 'politically correct', I don't think I've ever been that! :)
The Bredgar and Wormshil Light Railway use wood on some locos, much in the same way as the colonists (USA). This is seen as cleaner as it is just returning carbon that was absorbed in the first place by the tree.
How difficult would it be to convert steam engines to run on that? I appreciate that it is probably not going to burn as hot and so steam pressure might be an issue, but we are only taking about short distances and surely something is better than nothing?
Quote from: Stephen Rainsbury on November 17, 2021, 10:51This is seen as cleaner as it is just returning carbon that was absorbed in the first place by the tree.
Which is just a con, we burn wood far quicker than they grow back so it's not green and the stuff that comes out of the chimney is much worse as well. Oil burning may be an alternative, they'll have to use the stuff somewhere! TBH people will just have to accept coal burning for such uses (which as said are small in the gran scheme of things), or just stop the heritage industry altogether, remember we're talking steam locos here, but the same will apply to diesels as well!
I recently read about, but cannot cite a claim that heritage railways contribute half a per cent of transport's emissions. But I don't believe it for one moment. Maybe half of a half of a half of a per cent????
I say let's not conflate 'political correctness' with reducing emissions. But let's reduce the big emitters. I recommend Bill Gates' new book for clarification.
All the heritage railways combined in the UK use about 26,000 tonnes of high-quality bituminous lump (steam) coal every year.
At 2018 (I think) levels that was 0.02% of the UK's CO₂ emissions. However, as more coal fired power stations shut down and there are more electric cars etc. on the road this % will only get bigger.
Ffos-y-fran mine in South Wales is the only UK source for this type of coal and it is expected to close early next year. (2022)
The proposed new coal mine in Cumbria that has been in the news will not produce this type of coal, so even if it does get approval it will be of no use.
If the UK heritage lines have to purchase coal from overseas this will increase the total CO₂ emissions through transportation etc. My experience of eastern European steam coal was that it was nowhere near as good as the Welsh steam coal. So more may well be needed to do the same job. (I can also recall it having a high iron content that set solid on the fire bars!!)
To get some decent stuff we may have to end up getting it from Australia!
Surprisingly, the cost of shipping, if there is a big enough order for one ship, will still be less per ton getting it half way round the world than getting it from the UK port to the railway, but obviously the CO₂ emissions will be more than if it came from within the UK.
Quote from: Tom Haythornthwaite on November 17, 2021, 14:16I recommend Bill Gates' new book for clarification.
Is that the same Bill Gates as the one who flies around the world on private jets?! ("Do as I say, not as I do...")
Thanks for the hard data, Brian - always better than speculation! Maybe the HRA should buy the South Wales mine to secure future supplies of good Welsh coal?
David.
Quote from: clayliner on November 17, 2021, 17:36
Maybe the HRA should buy the South Wales mine to secure future supplies of good Welsh coal?
David.
Or perhaps not?
It is not a small pit!
(https://www.stantec.com/content/dam/stantec/images/projects/0085/open-cast-coal-site-141412.jpg)
Anyway the whole point of the coal extraction on this site over the past 15 years is to pay for the land reclamation scheme:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ffos-y-fran_Land_Reclamation_Scheme
Thanks for this, Brian. According to the article the consent to extract for 15 years appears to have been granted in 2006, which according to my maths means it will be shutting down production any day now...
David.
Just to confirm Brian's earlier figure, I see that December's Railway Magazine indeed reports that steam loco emissions were just 0.023% of the total UK CO2 emissions in 2018 [i.e. pre-pandemic]. "The HRA has secured the government's assurances that the Environment Bill will have no direct impact on the heritage steam sector, and that there is no intention to change its policy towards heritage steam".
So we can all relax...
David.
Quote from: Iain Morrison on December 05, 2021, 19:59
Quote from: clayliner on December 05, 2021, 19:26
...
So we can all relax...
David.
Until the green, tree huggers spot that they haven't yet targeted the heritage railway movement ... :-\
It's already happened. The Avon Valley Railway was targeted by a person or persons unknown who painted messages on the cycle path alongside the railway claiming that 'coal trains cause global warming' and urging people to 'boycott' the railway and it's popular cafe at Bitton.
I'm a proud, very green tree-hugger. And like most green tree-huggers, I am concentrating on the real problems which are astronomically bigger and astronomically less culturally important.
Quote from: Tom Haythornthwaite on December 07, 2021, 15:25the real problems which are astronomically bigger and astronomically less culturally important.
I read an article by (?tree-hugger) George Monbiot the other day in which he said the major offenders want individuals to focus on relatively trivial personal issues like bamboo toothbrushes - that way we will keep off their case. He has a name for this: MCB [Micro-Consumerist B*ll*cks]
So by all means re-use those plastic bags (though he says it has been estimated that one organic cotton tote bag has the same environmental impact as 20,000 plastic ones) but maybe focus more on the big stuff, like (globally) levelling down (3% annual growth means a doubling of economic activity in just 24 years). And put another round in the firebox without feeling guilty about it!
David.
I always think that the problem with plastics, especially bags and those micro beads, is not the use of plastic to make them but what happens to them after use, people just seem to dump them so we see them flying around and getting to places they shouldn't do and causing problems when they do. We use plastic a lot in our hobby but I don't see anyone demanding we stop, probably because we don't tend to throw away what we use!
Quote from: Hobby on December 09, 2021, 08:36We use plastic a lot in our hobby...
It depends what you mean by 'a lot', Blair. Yes, it's a sizeable proportion of our modelling materials, but in global plastics terms the actual amount we use is vanishingly small - definitely not worth losing any sleep over! Anyway, as long as we all keep recycling our stuff via the Sales and Recycling Service it'll never get back into the environment. :)
David.
I think the "we don't tend to throw away..." bit is key. That may even apply to the packaging as well as the contents, with boxes and vacuum moulded retaining trays inside them.
I think a criteria similar to the clothing 'cost per wear' might be applied. A soft drinks bottle has a useful life with respect to the purchaser only until the contents are drunk and the bottle disposed of whereas a model may have a useful life that exceeds that of its original purchaser.
Concerns over 'microparticles' in a hobby context might be less of a concern too. True, filing, sanding and so on will generate small chips of plastic but I wonder how much that is compared to what we shed from our clothes and wear off the soles of our shoes day after day?