I am a newcomer to 009, having last had a n gauge setrack layout 40 years ago as a teenager, and so I am limited (very!) in competence and confidence. I also frankly need to spread the cost out over time, but want to start getting something moving!
I am going to use peco 12" and y electro frog points. I note the desirability of altering them to avoid dependence on the switch blades for conductivity, though I hope to try to keep the points and blades as clean as possible.
As I was going to operate them manually, at least initially, as I quite like the tactile nature of that and the layout is not going to be show standard, I can't see why I can't drill the holes under the tie bar for the motors, and put in droppers to the frogs when I install them unaltered, and then add point motors with the polarity switches later as funds/confidence permits and/or the failing switch blade connectivity becomes an issue.
The layout will always be DC and the locos will be stationary as the points are changed, so there will be no power, and therefore no issue over a time gap and shorting.
Or am I missing something here?
Look forward to hearing your wisdom, and thanks,
Kevin
Hi Kevin, welcome to 009!
Operating the points manually depends on what you mean by that exactly! From your description I am guessing that you initially at least intend to operate them with finger from the sky poking the point blades over?
I note what you said about the "tactile" feature of manual operation, however I am reading that your intentions are that eventually you will progress to point motors and also polarity change switch operation?
An alternative way, which is cheaper and is also followed by many in the hobby is to go down the wire in tube route and use slide switches (very cheap and easily obtainable) to both change the point manually and also to provide polarity change.
There are a number of ways of achieving this - Gem do or did metal tubing and components, but you can also get very successful operation using piano wire and flexible nylon/PTFE tubing that is used in radio control aircraft and boats. Believe it or not, if your point control runs are straight to the baseboard edge you can also achieve switch to blade operation with bicycle spokes.
So, using slide switches, drill a hole in the switch and thread the wire through it. I do it "front to back" using copper tubing collars soldered onto the wire to act as "stops" either side of the switch. Others (most I think) drill the hole sideways and put a sharp bend in the piano wire to thread it through, along with a "V" bend or Omega loop to take up the slack and match the movement of the wire to the throw of the point blades. It's really quite simple and easier to do than trying to describe it without pictures. As for "tactile" , I personally found that wiring it up in this way and then testing it to find that it actually works, gives a very satisfying feeling indeed, as well as quite a lot of cash in the swear box during the initial learning process!
For polarity wiring - one wire soldered to the frog and run to the centre tab of the slide switch and one wire from each rail to slide switch tabs to match the "throw" of the switch so that each of the forward and rear positions of the switch match the current flow through the switch wiring.
There have been many articles published on this approach and I'm sure that some members here may wish to provide a more comprehensive account than I've been able to do!
Good luck and happy 009-ing!
Mick
The wire and PTFE tube system can be found here
http://lytchettmanor.co.uk.websitebuilder.prositehosting.co.uk/lytchett-manor/mercontrol---point-control
Some of the bits are currently available in the society shop, and quite often on eBay, but I would personally recommend buying from Lychett Manor for at least the first order to make sure you have a solid starting point. (Pun unintentional!)
An old and popular method for manual control that incorporates switches is to use slide switches with a plastic lever or dolly to switch the frog, drill a hole through the lever and thread wire through it to operate the point..... Quicker and better to find a photo. Here's one.
(https://forum.009society.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hall-royd-junction.co.uk%2Fimages%2FPoint_30_800.jpg&hash=43d98a666b54980a88510efa9a5b04b07f387e08)
http://www.hall-royd-junction.co.uk/Hall_Royd_Model/layout_50.html (http://www.hall-royd-junction.co.uk/Hall_Royd_Model/layout_50.html)
There are other ideas on the website too.
(Sorry the photo does not display inline on the forum because it is an 'http' not an 'https' website. It is the last but one photo on the page.)
Another variant on Mick's suggestion of using bicycle spokes: I used pieces of "rod" cut from wire coathangers. We used to have a lot of these, can't think where they have all gone?
They are difficult to solder to, so instead of Mick's copper tubes soldered on I use the metal inserts in electrical terminal blocks which fit nicely and are easy to adjust.
Frank
Thank you for the replies thus far. There is plenty to think about and decide upon. I had heard about wire in tube, but never really considered it. Hopefully, over the next year I might be able to get to some open days and see some layouts in operation, which will help. I might end up with a mixture of motors and wires.
I had indeed intended the finger from the sky to start off with, and am not concerned about that. But I am right in thinking that I can lay the points (with irj's in the right places of course) just as they are from the box, with some holes drilled under the tie bars and droppers from the frogs, and decide about the final form later? Electrically that should work with DC shouldn't it, with later polarity switching to the frog enhancing the power through the blades?
The one thing I don't want to do is lay and ballast the track, start on scenery, etc, and then have to rip up the track to alter the points.
Thanks again,
Kevin
Yes you should be fine with installing dropper wires - and putting a hole under one of the operating holes on the tie bar. Just remember to make it of a large enough diameter; the point throw is only a couple of millimetres, but you should make it on the large size to allow for gremlins. 6mm should be fine.
Also, point motors are fairly bulky - try to avoid siting them where you have obstructions under the baseboard (such as bracing).
Another variant of wire-in-tube is to use bicycle brake or gear cable - may come free if you can find an old bike!
David.
I continually read about doing this and that with trackwork, if its done correctly you should never have any major problems.
Crummack Valley, Tan y Allt, Gairloch & Wester Ross are still going strong and the first two go back to the 1980s.
All Peco track both 009 and N gauge, all with Peco point motors, no hard wiring for the points you rely on contacts from the blades.
Use 16 volts for the points, 12 volts for running.
These layouts toured the UK doing over 200 exhibitions since the 1980s and we have only ever needed to change a couple of
point motors and we had about 3 points fail on us over the years.
When you model in 009 and N gauge it is more important to keep everything clean, track, point blades and all stock not just locos.
Too many people make the hobby more complicated than it should be.
Those layouts just did nt collect trophies because they looked good, they ran extremely well.
Stan.
Hi
I'm a great one for simplicity. My SG points are within easy reach of the baseboard edge, so, it's just a finger on the operating lever. I clean the point blades at the same time as I clean the track before and after each running session. (If I don't, I get a problem somewhere !). There is no extra frog switching involved.
I do, however, have one NG point which is on an embankment at the back of the board and is more difficult to reach when normally seated. I'm thinking of experimenting with a RC micro servo to operate this one. (I have a few spare from my electric gliders and they are tiny and silly cheap now - about £5 each). Additional gears are available from the Far-East if you want play with the gearing /torque.
Happy modelling,
Dave
In practice the dropper wires do not always need to be from the actual frogs they can be on any rail that is connected to the frog. For example in a fan of points the frog polarity wire can be the feed wire to the next point switch.
If you use a nice solid track bed ¼ (6mm) plywood for example the point motors can be securely fixed to the under side of the tracked at a later date, provided you have left a hole for the control rod. (There is already a hole in the side of the tie bar on the points.) I is best to make sure the mounting for the point motor is adjustable relative to the point as it will need adjusting to get the switch to switch properly. Here is a photo of me testing a frog polarity switch mounted on a point motor, before it is wired to the track. The tabs on the point motor have been bent flat and it is secured with a couple section of tin and two small screws into the plywood so it can be adjusted. Once adjustred and tightened up I have found that they vertualy never need adjustment again.
For my past few layouts I've cut a groove in the top of the baseboard and laid a rail (bullhead is best) from the point to the edge of the board where I use a slider switch to change frog polarity. An omega loop at the switch end takes up any extra throw from the switch. There's photos on my layout thread on NGRM and RMWeb.
Tube and wire for turnout operation is also available from Wizard Models
I haven't tried it yet, but I bought these, 5m Tubing 71p, 10m wire £5
I haven't had chance to try it on a real layout, but it works well on my test board :-)
https://cpc.farnell.com/pro-elec/pelb0430/ptfe-teflon-tubing-0-71mm-clear/dp/CB22101?mckv=sFBGG6OB8_dc|pcrid|224645119674|kword||match||plid||slid||product|CB22101|pgrid|52698577371|ptaid|pla-937709500492|&CMP=KNC-GUK-CPC-SHOPPING&s_kwcid=AL!5616!3!224645119674!!!network}!937709500492!&gclid=CjwKCAjw0qOIBhBhEiwAyvVcf8Nel_-M2fKLv3v_eldaXk95q7zQdpcqZIEExu2M6Fvo_0ABRPEZ5BoC5x4QAvD_BwE
https://smile.amazon.co.uk/dp/B016KO51ZI/ref=redir_mobile_desktop?_encoding=UTF8&aaxitk=ab11fd8a94dfc5d76fe387065eac5872&hsa_cr_id=9739647880902&pd_rd_plhdr=t&pd_rd_r=6f2f3fea-9a35-42ea-a14f-5a4421dc9158&pd_rd_w=9OyB5&pd_rd_wg=eKcKL&ref_=sbx_be_s_sparkle_td_asin_1_title
Quote from: Stephen Rainsbury on August 03, 2021, 12:36
I haven't tried it yet, but I bought these, 5m Tubing 71p, 10m wire £5
I haven't had chance to try it on a real layout, but it works well on my test board :-)
I've had success with that arrangement (except that I used stainless steel wire) on an N gauge layout some years back. Straight runs work as you'd expect but on runs with bends in them the stretchiness of the PTFE tube absorbs some of the travel. This really isn't an issue in N or 009 where the movement required at the point is quite small.
Ian