Will the new handbook have those chassis diagrams/dimensions like the old ones, perhaps updated with the newer chassis from Minitrains, Tomix, Heljan and Bachmann? I'm sure plenty of people would like it, perhaps on the members only section of the website as well?
Quote from: Hobby on June 18, 2021, 11:53
Will the new handbook have those chassis diagrams/dimensions like the old ones, perhaps updated with the newer chassis from Minitrains, Tomix, Heljan and Bachmann? I'm sure plenty of people would like it, perhaps on the members only section of the website as well?
I agree Blair, it was a good resource in the old handbook that I still use to this day.
Does somebody want to do the leg-work in drawing them all to scale?
Even the basics such as wheel diameter, wheelbase, bogie centres would be a good start. No need for drawings, though, how about photos with dimensions added, probably gives a better idea of the chassis than a line drawing as well... eg:
https://imgur.com/Ncuom8y
I'd suggest that we can only give dimensions for the chassis we have, which in my case wouldn't amount to very many, I've appealed for this info before, on NGRM, and offered to collate it but was met with a big resounding ZERO in responses!
To whom, where, should people send dimensions, diagrams, pictures etc for this project?I think it should be fairly easy to cover the Japanese bobo and tram types because they usually state key dimensions and provide a diagram in the product description online and on the packaging.
Japanese are listed here:
http://trainweb.org/tomix/chassis_dim.htm
Yes, and that's an excellent resource. Which raises the question, is it actually necessary for the Society to create a list, or just direct people to lists that already exist?
As far as I know that's the only one, David, there aren't any for British, European and American locos that I know of, otherwise yes I would agree that a simple link would be fine... As long as someone has backed up the info just in case (or when) the website is taken down as seems to happen quite regularly.
The problem with directing members to web sites in the printed handbook is that the web sites can disappear without notice making the info useless.
What I would recommend at the very least to use the info/drawings in the old handbooks for all the older chassis as it is quite clear that many members still use these in the older 009 white metal kits and then add any newer chassis if possible. This assumes that those preparing the new edition have access to the masters or even printed editions of the older handbooks. (I may be able to help with HDMI version of the chassis drawing pages!)
Perhaps Neville at N drive could provide the drawings etc. for his range of chassis, it would certainly be a good place to publicise them.
I think one issue here might be forethought - we tend to use a chassis, and if it fits - well and good, but there it is in the body and we haven't had the forethought to measure it and note down the critical dimensions before we've installed it. (I know I'm guilty as charged!)
Plus, of course, there is the traditional reticence of folk to publish their work (as NEWS editors will attest!)
Perhaps rather than putting the onus on one individual, we can use this forum (and indeed this thread?) for folk to post the dimensions of the various chassis if and when they use them?
A suitably labelled photo or two - like that image above would be ideal? The photo does help a lot!
I might give it a try soon as I have a Bachmann Percy stripped down that I could use...
A photograph (or three!) along with the essential dimensions is a good idea even if there is a reasonably detailed drawing. Some manufacturer's ones are very detailed but it is asking a lot of someone to make drawings of similar detail. A clear photograph can show the detail that might be missing from an outline drawing.
Building up a collection over time rather than hoping to produce a complete set in time for including the handbook seems more realistic.
Where manufacturer's drawings do exist, would it be possible to put them on the web page much in the way there is 'Parts List' material on the web site?
Quote from: GraemeD on June 19, 2021, 13:32
Where manufacturer's drawings do exist, would it be possible to put them on the web page much in the way there is 'Parts List' material on the web site?
There may be a copyright problem there! Needs some investigation.
Well, that took a couple of hours of my time!
(https://i.imgur.com/rfM3Dwb.png)
Some thoughts
It does require forethought - as you can see I had already worked on that chassis -painted the wheels and bulked up the cylinders. This was because I remembered the Percy chassis I have "in waiting" has been butchered a bit, so I had to remove this one from a loco!
I took the photos with my phone - it produced better pictures than my DSLR! I supported the chassis with a bit of Blu-Tak to keep it in the orientations required for photography.
Measurements were done with a set of digital calipers. I really should have made a list beforehand as I had to do a second round of measurements..
actually cropping the images and putting them together on one page and adding the lines and dimensions was easy!
Quote from: B.Meldon on June 19, 2021, 12:56
The problem with directing members to web sites in the printed handbook is that the web sites can disappear without notice making the info useless.
Conversely the moment the handbook is sent to the publishers it becomes out of date, I can think of three chassis which will probably arrive too late for inclusion in the handbook as it stands now. There's also the space taken up in the handbook which could be better used, I'd suggest that 99.9% of people have access to the internet and as such a section on the Society Website may be a better place for these drawings/photos, people can always print the ones they need. With regards to websites coming and going as far as I am aware there is only that website with chassis dimensions for N chassis so perhaps it might be worth an official approaching the owner to see if we could display the diagrams on a member's Only section of the Society website?
Talking of keeping things updated, will there be a pdf. version of the handbook?
Me? I'm just the editor... I can't tell you anything about it! <grin>
I may have missed it but would this be a good candidate for a database on the website?
This could be index by name/year etc and contain photos, drawings and links to other sites.
See my last post, Stephen! ;)
my personal preference would be for a collection of diagrams held (probably in the Members' area) on the Society's Web Site. The big advantage of this method is the ease of adding to it.
Well that's four of us agreed on that (as per my OP(!)), but we've rather added to Julian's workload if it's agreed! I suspect a series of scans of the original diagrams and then photos submitted by members like the ones done by Hugh and that one I nicked from NGRM (I can't remember who did it!). TBH the photo version would be much better as it gives detail a line drawing can't, like where bits of surplus chassis can be hacked off!
Yes, Hugh's 'police mugshots' are excellent and show up all sorts of detail that a line drawing might not. For a start it looks like it will be a clear way to show the different materials and sub assemblies that could be relevant if it seems a chassis might need a bit of hacking as you say Blair.
Edit: in addition one or more 'three quarter' or similar views might help?
I'd agree that a handbook is not the place to go into details like currently available chassis lists. Handbooks for the "big picture' stuff that never really changes, at least not at all quickly, periodicals and websites for the precise details of current 'trends'. I'm thinking for instance about the.16mm Association handbook that came out last year. Nothing in that that won't continue to be relevant for decades, because it's a book about the scale as a whole, not about what is currently 'trendy' in the scale
The contents of a website section could easily enough be duplicated as printouts. Perhaps once/a few times a year a 'most recent' copy of the website chassis list could be sent out as a supplement with the News?
By the way, my preference is still for line drawings over photographs. Not that I'd expect anyone to go to the trouble of providing one when the manufacturer hasn't.
Another thought is when a new chassis is produced the drawing or photo is included in the News and then added to the website?
Quote from: Hobby on June 20, 2021, 14:19
Well that's four of us agreed on that (as per my OP(!)), but we've rather added to Julian's workload if it's agreed! I suspect a series of scans of the original diagrams and then photos submitted by members like the ones done by Hugh and that one I nicked from NGRM (I can't remember who did it!)...
If we are going to nick stuff from NGRM and make it available on the website, perhaps we should make that public access?
When I said "nicked" I meant I'd seen it on NGRM, someone else had posted it but I couldn't remember who, it's actually been posted on Imgur and is there for all to see, if we wanted to use it I could probably find who's it is easy enough and ask them!
However if we are going to put some work into doing this (and using the old diagrams) then I feel it is appropriate that Members get the benefit rather than the general public. Though once the Handbook is sold to someone they could easily pass it on or sell it to a non member!
Quote from: Hobby on June 21, 2021, 08:58
When I said "nicked" I meant I'd seen it on NGRM, someone else had posted it but I couldn't remember who, it's actually been posted on Imgur and is there for all to see, if we wanted to use it I could probably find who's it is easy enough and ask them!
However if we are going to put some work into doing this (and using the old diagrams) then I feel it is appropriate that Members get the benefit rather than the general public. Though once the Handbook is sold to someone they could easily pass it on or sell it to a non member!
Fair point, then maybe just make index visible, and maybe 4 or 5 locos as a teaser to encourage people to join up :-)
I think Hugh inadvertently hit the nail on the head of why this has never been done again when he said that he'd taken a couple of hours just to do one! I've taken some photos of the Roco O/S frame 0-6-0 just now and will get round to it when I'm not working or on holiday (possible in a couple of weeks or so) but it won't be as detailed as Hugh's, the dimensions will be simply of w/base and diameter and dimensions of the metal body block over it (the cab and rear bunker are plastic.
Just out of interest, Hugh, what software programme did you use to do it?
Quote from: Hobby on June 22, 2021, 10:03
Just out of interest, Hugh, what software programme did you use to do it?
I used my go-to photo editing program Paint Shop Pro (7) to straighten the images then crop them closely.
I then brought the four into Microsoft Publisher and used horizontal and vertical guide lines to scale and line up the images to each other. Then labeling was a doddle.
I created a PDF document and took a screen shot of the PDF (you can't get a decent screen shot of a document in Publisher itself as it will display "frames"!)
Back to Paint Shop Pro to crop the screen shot and save it as a JPG.
You could certainly use any image editing program to do the photos. I used Publisher for the other bits because I have it on my PC and I'm fairly good at using it.
Quote from: hughn on June 22, 2021, 19:38
I created a PDF document and took a screen shot of the PDF (you can't get a decent screen shot of a document in Publisher itself as it will display "frames"!)
Hugh: you can actually go straight to JPG (or PNG) from Publisher. File then Export (as if doing a PDF) then click on change file type and you will find a range of image types you can produce.
Hope that's useful
Ian
I've been using PDF24 which is free software for various pdf related tasks and it can extract or convert images in a pdf document to an image file that can be edited in an image editor. Unfortunately it seems it is only to JPG*, though I see there are other pdf to PNG convertors (which should be better for line drawings) available.
https://tools.pdf24.org/en/ (https://tools.pdf24.org/en/)
PDF24 can either be downloaded or run online.
*Edit: my mistake it can produce PNG files too.
Quote from: hughn on June 22, 2021, 19:38
I used my go-to photo editing program Paint Shop Pro (7) to straighten the images then crop them closely.
That is still my favourite too. I am just glad it still works on Windows 10.
I have remembered I took an underside pic of the chassis, too!
I took the other photo on a different background (and with a different camera...) Anyway, I've added it to the composite:
(https://i.imgur.com/75R7loj.png)
I have never seen inside a Bachman Percy before, is that a DCC decoder please?
Quote from: Stephen Rainsbury on June 23, 2021, 11:30
I have never seen inside a Bachman Percy before, is that a DCC decoder please?
They are the r.f. interference supression components - just a couple of small inductors one in series with each wire to the motor.