Is there any significance in the description of Society kits as variations on 'exclusive' in the shop?
Besides who is permitted to buy them from the online shop, is there a difference in their origin and supply? I understand that some are made using moulds specially commissioned by the Society, but clearly the Colin Ashby kit has a different origin as with the Hudson coach using Dundas bogies.
As far as I know there are a couple of different categories involved here.
The Colin Ashby kits are exactly that - the old Colin Ashby kits, made from his moulds. I'm not sure of the exact details of the deal involved (do the Society now own the moulds, or do we have an exclusive deal with Colin to supply kits?) but as far as I know the 009 Society is the only source of these kits as new.
The other Society kits (Hudson toastrack coach*, T&D Cattle Van, RNAD stock and the freelance small 4 wheel wagons) were entirely commissioned by the 009 Society, though if memory serves they moulds were made by the late Richard Hollingsworth (that may not be the correct spelling) of Parkside Dundas and were produced for us by them. My understanding is that Peco now do the moulding, in common with all of the original Parkside (standard gauge) and Dundas (009) ranges.
(* note that the Hudson coach does indeed use the Dundas WD bogie mouldings, but the rest is a specially commissioned 009 Society mould)
As to them being 'exclusive' as far as I know these are only available to 009 Society members, whether bought online, from the Soicety's sales stand or from those publicity stands that can sell them - I have a feeling that Bill Luty's Leeds-based stand has sold them and I know the West Mids one does when it can as I've had some people joining specifically to buy some of the RNAD kits in the past (as I couldn't sell to a non-member).
I hope that's answered your question Graeme.
Thanks Julien fior summarising the position.
There is one correction to make, as afar as I am aware. The Colin Ashby kits come to the Society from Colin Ashby via a member who knows him in NE England. I am sure we don't own the moulds or rights, but it is a mutually convenient distribution arrangement which suits the parties involved.
The rest are 'ours' and in principle only for Society members. I can't absolutely promise that none have 'escaped' to non-members from the sales stand, but sales to members is how we try to keep it!
Julian
Colin Ashby still owns the moulds for his kits but has been winding down now for a number of years.
The 009 Society is not the only stockist of the above kits as the Merseyside &SWest Lancs Group sales have stocks of the
4 wheel open wagons, which can be purchased with metal spocked wheels or just the kit without wheels.
Stan.
Just to add..
The Hudson coach as well as having the main plastic specially commissioned 009 Society mould now produced by Peco via Dundas and the Dundas WD bogie mouldings, it also has a etch again commissioned by the 009 society from Neil Sayer and more recently I think, like the other society kits they now have the Greenwich wheels, then there is the instructions and the packaging.
This is just to illustrate how difficult it is to produce these kits; it is far from simple and as a member I am very grateful to all those that were involved with their development and their continued production for members.
Many thanks for the replies. I had an inkling there would be a story to it and not a simple "make is so, number 1" :)
Talk like this attracts me to the sales page which is bad for my wallet ;D
However I have T&D cattle wagons which I bought from Dundas, and they look to be very similar to the Society ones, are they from the same mould or just look similar in small photos?
Quote from: Stephen Rainsbury on May 07, 2021, 13:18
Talk like this attracts me to the sales page which is bad for my wallet ;D
However I have T&D cattle wagons which I bought from Dundas, and they look to be very similar to the Society ones, are they from the same mould or just look similar in small photos?
The chassis and floor will be the same, but the body of the 009 Society kit has slatted sides rather than the opening vents on the Dundas kit which is a 'dual purpose' van (vents closed for general goods, open when carrying livestock).
The only other kit for this type of van was a white metal body and brass chassis produced by Backwoods Miniatures (note that it may not be exactly the same design of cattle van). I'm not sure if Neville Kent has reintroduced them as part of his range yet.
I found a set of instructions and checked last night. The only thing I can add is the roof is also part of Parkside Dundas/Dundas original mouldings and the curve is ever so slightly different to the 009 Society ends. The instructions suggest they might be bent to shape. Alternatively the instructions suggest the might be left off as the prototypes lost or had their roofs removed apparently.
Edit:
I see there are parts lists for commercial locomotives on the web site. I wonder if electronic copies of Society kit instructions on the web site would be of any use? A number of small kit manufacturers distribute their instructions that way. If 009 Sales is viewable by the public then also having instructions on view might attract further interest?
While this topic is still current, can anyone give a steer on what the current situation with the Society kits is please?
I'm aware that action was taken to re-issue some of the earlier kits that had gone out of production (such as the cattle van for example) and improve the provision and distribution of the kits after a period of uncertainty about supplies etc, but as far as I can remember, I don't think there's been any progress reports about the issue of new kits?
Last thing I was aware of was that a year or two or more ago, the next kit being made ready was a bogie coach, that had been in development for a long time, and included etched components as well as injected plastic and was very near to being ready for production.
Are there any updates available about this please, as it seems to have "dropped off the radar"? Additionally, are there plans to produce more different Society kits or other useful and exclusive to members items such as chimneys, domes, boiler fittings, wheels (which seem to be a popular topic with members trying to source suitable wheels for various purposes) etc in the near future?
Mick
Unofficially, Mick, I think it's true to say that the 'regular' (and exclusive!) Society kits are now back in stock, including the Hudson coach. This also includes the Colin Ashby wagons but I seem to remember that it will be some months before any new stock becomes available after the present ones have been sold. Thanks especially to Bill Luty who has recently been busy packing kits in addition to his usual sterling service stuffing envelopes.
As to new items, that's obviously for others to comment upon - Sales only sell what is available! I'm sure someone from The Management will be able to add a comment.
David.
(Comment moderated by Webmaster)
Quote from: MickT on May 08, 2021, 11:30
Additionally, are there plans to produce more different Society kits or other useful and exclusive to members items such as chimneys, domes, boiler fittings, wheels (which seem to be a popular topic with members trying to source suitable wheels for various purposes) etc in the near future?
Ears prick up at mention of this.... :)
Various fittings for 009 does sound an interesting proposition. Established kit-bashers and scratch builders are likely to have a good stock of parts but I wonder if suitable 'bits' being available might encourage others to try taking it up?
Another potentially useful 'bit' might be a wagon chassis or just frames and axle boxes. Also bogies perhaps. Anyway, the sort of thing that could turn a box into a piece of rolling stock.
There is at least one problem with the idea of producing rolling stock parts for scratchbuilders etc.
A lot of work involved and generally you end up holding stock for sometime.
Model railway modellers purchase far more locos than rolling stock or their parts.
Good idea, but would the prices be prohibited ?
Stan.
I suspect numbers for chassis only kits (especially if made to various lengths) would be as good if not better than prototype based kits, Stan. I think it's a good idea, as is the boiler and other fittings one.
A thought...
Why do the kits have to be rolling stock related? How about lineside accessories? Water towers/tanks, goods sheds, station buildings, etc.. You could make them using a combination of laser cut card and 3d printing.
There are at least 3 or 4 small traders who produce lineside items and buildings in various scales and some look very good.
In fact one has been in touch me to bring a stand to Rainford in September, if we can proceed with the show.
It does appear that the traders who produced loco fittings are not around these days and you have to consider why that is ?
Has Matt Chivers ever thought of doing it ? May be an idea to ask him.
Dundas Models produces wagon chassis, does he sell as many of them as the full kits they are used for ?
All good ideas, but you will not survive, if you cabbot make any money.
Stan.
The society isn't a business, Stan. Its making some money from the sales stand and that money is being invested into the kits. I doubt there will be much profit in the sales from them. That's how it should be. The society kits are just there to help members and all we are discussing is ideas for the future.
Regards lineside stuff and buildings I was thinking NG specific, whilst there is a small amount of stuff around there's still plenty of more could be modelled.
Quote from: Stan Williams on May 08, 2021, 19:57
All good ideas, but you will not survive, if you cannot make any money.
Stan.
I don't think Stan was referring to the Society with this sentence, Blair - I took it to mean that the (small) businessperson won't do this if there's no profit (however small) in it.
On the other hand - there appear to be 3D printers who maybe able to make fittings - at least they won't have to carry a stock.
I thought that the point with the society kits is that they are produced as a service to the members, not to make money. So whether they make money is not relevant to the discussion. If there is a demand for something, even if it would not be one that would be commercially viable, surely that's where the society should look.
I was simply making suggestions in regard of lineside items, it's all too easy to dismiss it as Stan has done and concentrate just on stock, but why should we? Surely we should be open to all suggestions?
Why not ask the question in the News. No doubt it will produce lots of varying answers but I suspect some good suggestions will also be made.
As you say with 3D printing even more may be possible, but laser cut kits are also a way, there's a lot more ways to produce things these days than just brass, white metal and plastic!
Blair,
I put it in words twice, it is a good idea, but you have to look beyond that.
I never mentioned the society making a profit and they will not be manufacturer, but the person or persons producing them,
will have to make a profit.
How much would you be willing to pay for loco fittings, or buildings or other lineside items ?
There is nothing stopping you going out and finding someone (an individual or a business) asking for a quote and then going to the
society committee giving them the the details and asking if they would go ahead with the project, or ask society memmbers if they are
interested.
You have Matt Chivers e-mail address maybe a telephone number, why not ask him if he would quote for a supply of loco domes,
chimneys, safety valves, plus any other items that come to mind.
You could also ask the society to stock metal wagon wheels.
Stan.
Thanks for agreeing it's a good idea, Stan.
How they get them produced will be down to them, not me, as I am sure you know. As they've already had some made I am sure they will be fully aware of the costs of manufacture, and have the contacts, so it's not something that I feel is relevant to the discussion other than if the quote is too high they'll have to look at something else! But that's what they'll have done with the existing kits.
I have that feeling we are going round in circles, perhaps misunderstanding each other's points!
Sales already have a contact for high-quality 3-D printing who has already provided some useful spares such as replacement gears. Other 'bits and bobs' are a possibility.
David.
One of the perennial problems with 009 is the lack of suitable chassis for many of the loco kits available.
Is there anything the Society can do to alleviate this? Perhaps commissioning someone to make some chassis, or alternatively perhaps buying commercially produced chassis from a loco manufacturer and making these available to members without the extra cost of an unwanted body? An individual is unlikely to get very far approaching a manufacturer for a single chassis, but the society could perhaps order enough to be of interest to the manufacturer.
Frank
Once you've decided on the appropriate chassis requirements , Frank!
Number of wheels.
Wheelbase.
Wheel diameter.
Inside or outside frames.
Even designing a chassis kit that would be able to fit all the varients would be a job in itself! I suspect a kit of parts could be a possibility, though the trouble then is that many modellers are just not interested in constructing them (or, like me, haven't got the skill set), 009 has built itself round rtr chassis.
Good idea, though, and one to throw into the melting pot!
Quote from: Frank on May 11, 2021, 14:30
One of the perennial problems with 009 is the lack of suitable chassis for many of the loco kits available.
Is there anything the Society can do to alleviate this? Perhaps commissioning someone to make some chassis, or alternatively perhaps buying commercially produced chassis from a loco manufacturer and making these available to members without the extra cost of an unwanted body? An individual is unlikely to get very far approaching a manufacturer for a single chassis, but the society could perhaps order enough to be of interest to the manufacturer.
Frank
There are suitable chassis. For example, the Minitrains chassis, the Roco 0-6-0 and the Bachmann Percy.
There are 009 kits available for these chassis.
These chassis are good quality and run well, the kits that have been produced for them are of a high quality.
What is missing is the cheap chassis for the 009 kits dating from the 1980's and 1990's.
The simple fact is that it does not cost much less to make a chassis in a factory in China than it does to make a complete loco and there are no model loco production factories outside China anymore.
So, for example a Minitrains 0-4-0 chassis would cost about the same as a complete Minitrains loco!
Why would the manufacture provide chassis that would have to be sold for less than a complete loco when it would cost hardly any less to have it made!
The days of cheap, in some cases subsidised N gauge chassis is over and it will never return.
Perhaps
Quote from: B.Meldon on May 11, 2021, 19:52
The days of cheap, in some cases subsidised N gauge chassis is over and it will never return.
In terms of steam chassis, maybe
But just look at the trade in tram and bo-bo/multiple unit chassis from the likes of Kato and Tomytec. Affordable, plentiful and in a wide variety of specifications. These are the modern equivalent of all those cheap steam chassis from the 80s and 90s. The profusion of skirted steam engine prints is clear evidence of this, the modern equivalent of a Pugbash-n'-Dock Tank. If you don't like those, a cheap carriage or van kit body hacked about a bit and you have a nice railcar for the tram or bo-bo chassis, and probably at less cost than the pug n'tank was when new.
I know, there are few kits to fit these chassis, excluding the prints.
Quote from: B.Meldon on May 11, 2021, 19:52
There are suitable chassis. For example, the Minitrains chassis, the Roco 0-6-0 and the Bachmann Percy.
There are 009 kits available for these chassis.
There are very few 009 body kits which have an RTR chassis that is
accurate for the kit, though, Brian. Whilst those chassis can be used they are, at best, a compromise. So a "vari-chassis-kit" is an alternative and would probably be cheaper than a "one chassis fits all" which is what we already have. The issue is whether it's possible. As we have a member who actually makes chassis, and variable wheelbase ones at that, it may be worth the powers that be have a discussion about it. Which I am sure they will, or maybe already have, who knows!
Quote from: Frank on May 11, 2021, 14:30
One of the perennial problems with 009 is the lack of suitable chassis for many of the loco kits available.
Is there anything the Society can do to alleviate this? Perhaps commissioning someone to make some chassis, or alternatively perhaps buying commercially produced chassis from a loco manufacturer and making these available to members without the extra cost of an unwanted body? An individual is unlikely to get very far approaching a manufacturer for a single chassis, but the society could perhaps order enough to be of interest to the manufacturer.
Frank
It is something that has been discussed before.
The first stumbling block, as Hobby points out, is what sort of a chassis does the Society produce? I very much doubt that there is a 'one size fits all' solution to that one.
Even if the "one size fits all" solution could be found, the problem then is that with a possible minimum order of 10,000 units and only 2000 members that's going to be a hard one to justify, and we'd also need someone to manage the project, from the design stage through to holding and managing the stocks of unsold chassis that are going to be sat around for some time, and an awful lot of cash tied up in the project. Even approaching one of the manufactures of current chassis I suspect the minimum order would be several hundred, which still means someone having to hold quite significant stocks and the Society tying up cash.
Missing from Brian's list, and something that does fill the gap left by the lack of chassis for 009 kits dating from the 1980's and 1990's, are the products of N-Drive Productions (https://www.n-driveproductions.com/). Whilst Neville's lead times are quite long (understandable from a one man band cottage industry where the one man concerned is also trying to hold down a full time job to pay the bills) I have several of his chassis and would recommend them as being well worth the wait time between placing your order and Neville asking for payment as he has built it.
Neville was the person I was thinking about when I suggested a chassis vari-kit, Julien. He has the expertise.
I know I am only talking about one 0-4-0 chassis, but the conversations with Mr Kato suggested he would make available
the England chassis for scratch builders.
It maybe possible the society could purchase these and I would not think you would have to order thousands (but who knows).
Certainly in the past the manufacturer wanted large orders, but I noticed recently and I think it maybe Bachmann is producing
a batch of locos, but there will be only 150 of them (standard gauge).
The question is always, do the society want to tie up funds and has been said, how long will the stock last ?
Stan.
Thanks for the input and ideas in this thread. The question of what next, now we have the existing kits in production, is already under discussion by relevant committee members, looking at what we can and can't do. Where does this leave us?
My own view is that we need to concentrate on what the Society can offer members that others will find harder to do. We shouldn't be duplicating other kit manufacturers' offerings and small run batches of 3D prints are within reach of individual modellers or groups of modellers, as Stan and his colleagues have ably demonstrated with Upnor Castle etc. However, injection moulded plastic kits, as we already produce, require not only the excellent 3D drafting skills typical of the best 3D prints, but also access to tool making for the moulds which are not cheap. However, these can be amortised over the sorts of production run length which we, through Society Sales, can hope to achieve. Happily we currently have the financial resources to do this without undue risk to the Society's long term health. As for what to produce, I expect we will be asking members for input on possible designs.
Let's turn to loco chassis. In the last 12-18 months we have had discussions with two manufacturers on finding a way of making chassis available separately, either exclusively to us, or through the model trade. One company gave a polite but firm, "no", saying it is against their policy to do so. The other, Kato, have said they plan to distribute their new 0-4-0 chassis via the trade. Given this, speaking for myself only, I don't see the need for the Society to get involved except to encourage them and cheer them on. If this does happen (fingers crossed) it opens up all sorts of possibilities.
Commissioning our own chassis or complete locomotive is a significantly more complex undertaking, requiring heavy project management and financial resources. I've talked to one group that has recently commisioned a simple 0-6-0 loco and the time and costs are eye-watering!
I hope this gives a feel for where we are and why. I'd love to see us produce more kits for members and hope we can achieve this.
Julian
Quote from: Julian Evison on May 13, 2021, 19:16
The other, Kato, have said they plan to distribute their new 0-4-0 chassis via the trade. Given this, speaking for myself only, I don't see the need for the Society to get involved except to encourage them and cheer them on. If this does happen (fingers crossed) it opens up all sorts of possibilities.
Thanks Julian that is exceptionally good news!
I for one hate canibalising perfectly good N gauge locos to the extent that I and up keep half of them and are now planning an N Gauge heresey terminus so I have somewhere to run them :-)
Stephen,
I certainly hope so, but I guess their plans may change and its not something we have any control over!
Julian
"The other, Kato, have said they plan to distribute their new 0-4-0 chassis via the trade. Given this, speaking for myself only, I don't see the need for the Society to get involved"
As we want trade support and some traders earn their living that way the Society should not step on their toes.