Hello,
Hopefully I have managed to attach an image of my "I can't believe it's not a diorama".
This will be DC with electrofrog points (wiring amended) manually operated with associated micro switches to control frog polarity.
In the image, just for identification:
points are A-D
track sections 1-5
the red in top left is the only through line
Are the power feeds of the correct number and positions?
Are the isolation breaks X, Y and Z necessary and should they break both rails?
Many thanks,
Lawrence
Sorry - that didn't work as I expected. I will have another go in a while,
Lawrence
Hope this works, this learning curve is getting very slippy.
As a minimum yes X, Y, Z need to be double rail breaks.
For Peco electrofrog points I think the recommended practice is to put insulated joiners on both rails attached to the frog Vee on all points, so the starting point is 8 breaks.
It may then be possible to reduce the number of isolators by removing redundant breaks, e.g. break Y serves the frog of turnout A and C and perhaps in sidings, notably [4].
If the layout is wired for a single dc controller there should be no need to have breaks in continuous running rails (e.g. point X). If however the top two feeds are from separate controllers and the top rail is not a common return then a break would be needed.
I find the most reliable way to check is to print out the track plan and colour the rails, say red for the 'right' (+ve) rail and blue or green for the 'left' (-ve) rail, where 'right' and 'left' would be from the point of view of 'normal' forward running. If this is a terminus and trains arrive from the left hand edge going West to East, I'd say the rails to the top of the screen would be -ve and the rails to the bottom +ve. The turnout frogs will become whatever polarity their points touch the running rails they link to. If the colours do not match then a break is needed.
*** Edit: if this is dc layout control perhaps the thread should be moved to the Electrics and Control Section?
Lawrence,
1) Your track feeds are fine - just what is needed.
2) If your rail breaks are in both rails then all of X, Y and Z will be fine. This will also allow you to control each of the feeds independently.
3) If you want to put a rail break in one only rail, Y is fine, but X and Z need to be in the other rail.
Graeme's method of 'coloured rails' is a good one.
I try to do it by remembering two rules. 1) Points must be fed from the toe end and 2) Two frogs musn't face each other unless there is a break between them. This gives the minimum for feeds and isolations. The rules apply for DC and, I think, DCC. You can always add more sections for operational interest or controllability (DC).
Julian
Edited to add comment about independent control of sections.
Just a thought on rail breaks: I'm not sure how much standardization there is in model railway track wiring diagrams. I may be imagining it, but I think in the early days when track was shown as a single solid line and common return wiring assumed, a single 'tick' across the line of the track (-) indicated a break in the 'live' rail and a double 'tick' (=) across the track indicated a break in both rails, though looking online diagrams appear with all sort of variations from simply a break in the rails to double ticks on both rails. My old Railway Modellers are in boxes packed away so it is not easy to check them.
For the life of me I cannot remember which way round the solid and open feed triangles go and whether the solid black one indicates it is the negative or return (following old mains electricity coding for neutral) or is solid to indicate it is the 'active' side of the feed.
Many thanks to you all for your experience and wise words – I am extremely grateful for your responses.
It all started to make a lot more sense when I realised what is a bit counter-intuitive; that is, in selecting a particular route it is not the route/rail from frog selected that necessitates, at that instant, the insuljoiner but the non-selected route/rail from frog because this is where the short will occur. Obviously, this means that a frog will have to have 2 insuljoiners but when they are "insulating" is not as obvious as it perhaps first appears. So, I can now see the merits of colouring in the rails in green and red.
Yes, I only have one controller. The head shunt at 3 will end just behind part of a building allowing me to create, sometime, a continuous loop and/or run to another module.
I also now appreciate the problems presented by passing loops, head shunts, and kickbacks all of which I have managed to include. I had initially considered a cascade of 3 points but, funny enough, it wasn't as easy to accommodate. Seeing Chris Krupa's Minbury Abbas online started me off with 009 but what started as his format ended up very different if, hopefully, just as restrictively interesting.
I didn't mention the isolation of sections of the sidings as I think I can handle this OK.
By the way, how do I request this thread to be moved to the Electrics and Control Section?
I can now get on with track-laying. Once something actually moves it will be a great encouragement to complete the module.
Thank you,
Lawrence
It is not how I would do it.
I would have wired the feeds from the point frogs so that each section is isolated when the point is switched against it.
You still need the isolating fishplates on the frogs.
I will see if I can re-draw it.
Ok I have now added the isolating fishplates and removed unnecessary feeds.
The two feeds with the * should be wired together
If you wire it this way section 5 and 4 will both be isolated with point B and point B will be isolated with point A.
Quote from: GraemeD on May 02, 2021, 11:39
For the life of me I cannot remember which way round the solid and open feed triangles go and whether the solid black one indicates it is the negative or return (following old mains electricity coding for neutral) or is solid to indicate it is the 'active' side of the feed.
Even Cyril Freezer in old Railway Modellers doesn't give a key on his diagrams. I imagine there was time when most people simply knew this. After quite a bit of searching I found the following "Draw on to your track plan the power feeds as open (or coloured) triangular fillets for all the feeds and solid black shade triangles for returns." This is from a very comprehensive site of model railway electrics who worked as Railway Signal and Telegraph Dept. and is a railway modeller.
https://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/Electrical_Page_1.html
Lawrence
Quote from: B.Meldon on May 04, 2021, 10:36
Ok I have now added the isolating fishplates and removed unnecessary feeds.
The two feeds with the * should be wired together
If you wire it this way section 5 and 4 will both be isolated with point B and point B will be isolated with point A.
Many thanks for dealing with my awkward diagram. I am sure this would be so much easier to learn face-to-face than in a forum. I will use be using frog polarity switches.
I shouldn't have used my SCARM design but redrawn it with single lines but then how can you indicate isolated fishplates on a specific rails? I should have placed the feed/returns at the toes of the points which was what I intended. On your version I presume the feed at Y has slipped down and should be above the rail obscuring the Y?
I understand now that there are different ways skin a cat with respect layout electrics. I was under impression that there was "one way only". Many thanks for sharing your refinement.
Lawrence
Quote from: B.Meldon on May 04, 2021, 10:36
Ok I have now added the isolating fishplates and removed unnecessary feeds.
The two feeds with the * should be wired together
If you wire it this way section 5 and 4 will both be isolated with point B and point B will be isolated with point A.
Erm, I think that's incorrect, Brian....
Quote from: hughn on May 04, 2021, 17:20
Quote from: B.Meldon on May 04, 2021, 10:36
Ok I have now added the isolating fishplates and removed unnecessary feeds.
The two feeds with the * should be wired together
If you wire it this way section 5 and 4 will both be isolated with point B and point B will be isolated with point A.
Erm, I think that's incorrect, Brian....
OH NO!! Yes you are correct! I got it wrong! I missed a feed and an isolating fishplate!! I have now corrected the plan.
Sorry Lawrence if this sent you in the wrong direction.
OH NO!! Yes you are correct! I got it wrong! I missed a feed and an isolating fishplate!! I have now corrected the plan.
Sorry Lawrence if this sent you in the wrong direction.
[/quote]
Absolutely no problem Brian, as I noted, my diagram was not a good starting point and the communication medium not as a face-to-face discussion.
Lawrence