There is a section the new Chris Ford Welsh Railway book that says copying a standard gauge track plan and reducing it will not give you a very good NG layout.
Here my lack of experience with Full sized railways becomes painfully obvious, what sort of things is he talking about please?
Bit of a tricky question to answer. But having been a standard gauge modeller for years I think the differences are in the operational practices between the two gauges. Narrow gauge railways tend to be less 'formal' or 'rigid' in their track layouts.
Not perhaps a very good answer, but I'm sure someone will be able to put the differences better than me.
It's a bit of a sweeping statement and without seeing the context in which it's written it's hard to comment, though I'll try! The use of the phrase "standard gauge" is the contentious bit, compared to many SG lines run by the large rail companies I'd agree with him, they tended to be built in set ways, similar track plans and designs of buildings (look at the stations on the Settle to Carlisle to see it taken to it's ultimate. However I'd have said that when compared to Light Railways (of which a large number were SG) then the differences are much less. However I'm talking about "common carrier" lines like the Welshpool where i suspect had the line been built to SG wouldn't have been a great deal different to what it was in NG... "Industrial" lines like the Talylyn, Festiniog or Corris, though, wouldn't have used standard station track plans, being built to suit their use... Perhaps that's what he was referring to?
It's like when people model Austrian NG using Lilliput stock and the track plan they use is clearly based on a British "style" station layout... Drives me nuts and it's just down to laziness, not being willing to do some research... Perhaps the comment was made to make people think and look at prototypes before building in which case I fully support him!
I have seen some very good 009 layouts based on standard gauge track plans.
But it does very much depend on what type of NG line you are baseing your layout on.
It is always best to look at photos of existing NG railways that may be a bit like the type of lne you want to model.
I'd say (thinking out loud) what sort of standard gauge layout and what sort of NG one? Along with that, which country?
The clearest distinction between SG and NG in the UK would be double track running, but I'm sure there are or were many branch lines that could make for an interesting NG line However I'm sure though there is double track NG somewhere in the world (Switzerland, Japan...) ***. Another thing will be operational speed and its implication on track design and placement and orientation of pointwork. Facing points being avoided at all costs in some situations and in certain eras. Another aspect is probably SG stations (even on single track) cope regularly with more than one train in a station at the same time and passengers changing trains but that is possibly quite rare in NG (except in places where NG is the main system or busy tourist lines). Another would be separation or lack of it between passenger and goods handling possibly lack of separation of trains and people.
(It is weird and unnerving to see railroad track in small-town USA. I guess that is why they have those annoying bells, whistles and horns that DCC layout operators at exhibitions use to torment other exhibitors.)
*** even in the UK apparently!
https://rogerfarnworth.com/2019/05/11/caithness-double-track-narrow-gauge-line/ (https://rogerfarnworth.com/2019/05/11/caithness-double-track-narrow-gauge-line/)
(I can see someone in 'that other place' 3D printing this railway! ;D )
There are a lot of SG modellers branching out into narrow gauge and it's too easy for them just to build a smaller version of what they've done in the past. Chris and the rest of us are saying that's the wrong approach, do some research first, NG is often quite different...
Now where is my signal gantry kit... ;)
OK that all makes sense, thanks, but this brings me on to the next train of thought <pun intended>
How are/were the operations of NG different, and I am thinking specifically UK, here before Heritage/Preservation really took hold?
I have only come back to the hobby recently and most of my time on Full size railways was not spent trying to understand the sublties of operation, but after have read several books about Col Stephens I am left with the impression that for him
- Standardization was jus a word, you used what was available and cheap. This alone is probably why it appeals to me so much as I can let my imagination run free.
- Mixed traffic was normal practice, but then it was on SG branch lines (see Titfield Thunderbolt)(just see it anyway)
- Signals seem optional at best
- Signal boxes were rare, in favour of lever or ground frames if you were posh
- The number of points was minimized, probably for cost and build time.
I appreciate that this is far from an exhaustive list, but in the past whenever I poste a plan somebody would point out that having points there would not be prototypical or a siding would have served no purpose, so any other observations would be more than welcome :-)
It depends on the line itself.
I mentioned earlier about Common Carriers, they would operate in the same way, regardless of gauge, many being built using the Light Railways Act of 1896 to get the finance. I mentioned the Welshpool before, had that have been built as SG its unlikely that operation would have been any different other than the transfer of goods at Welshpool would not have been necessary.
Your bullet points would be valid for both SG and NG common carrier railways.
Regarding your comments about track plans and sidings that wouldn't exist, think about bullet points 1 and 5, they were cash strapped and points cost, so there would have to be a good reason to put a siding in. An example on the Welshpool was the siding at Tanllan, which was used for logging which would have been quite common in such areas. Coal, cattle and probably a small crane would also be there. Facilities in both cases same whether SG or NG. Platforms may axist on SG light railways but less common on NG lines, or certainly not full sized.
All of that is for common carriers, industrial lines such as slate lines would have different priorities and so track layouts and facilities.
Have a look at the 'Narrow Gauge Atmosphere' thread on here (in the Prototype > General section) for more discussion about what makes n-g different from s-g (sometimes, anyway).
David.
Stephen.
Each NG line in the UK was different in the way they were operated and they there were the countless industrial narrow-gauge lines, that would all be different again. There is no 'typical' narrow gauge railway.
There were even some industrial narrow-gauge systems that had some long sections of double track!
So, the question you need to ask yourself is what type of narrow-gauge line do you want to model?
Once you know the answer to that it is easy to work out how to plan the track etc.
Quote from: B.Meldon on February 12, 2021, 11:14
Each NG line in the UK was different in the way they were operated and they there were the countless industrial narrow-gauge lines, that would all be different again. There is no 'typical' narrow gauge railway.
...
So, the question you need to ask yourself is what type of narrow-gauge line do you want to model?
Once you know the answer to that it is easy to work out how to plan the track etc.
Thanks Brian,
At the moment I am enjoying making up a couple of Microlayouts, which is giving me chance to find out about issues with track laying, servo point motors, trying to make a piece of scrub actually look like scrub etc.
In parallel I have built a set of Freem009 modules and want to make something that could have existed in Kent 100 years ago, but has now been restored as closely as possible, but still uses rolling stock and locos form any age or location. My two closest NG lines are the "Sittingbourne and Kemsley" and "Bredgar and Wormshill" so many if ideas have come from there.
Some 50+ years ago I was inspired by the layout below "Porthleven" and it stayed with me over the many years that I was not active in the hobby, indeed it was watching the "Great Model railway Challenge" that prompted me to seek out a copy of the magazine, which in turn started me buying stuff again.
Just before Christmas I realized that this layout in N-Gauge would just fit on one of my modules, and that would allow me to run some of my favorite Steam locos in a lazy backwater GWR summer setting, but then I worked out he price.
My next thought was to re-create the layout in 009, the track would be the same, and stock about the same sizes, and I already had it, but Chris's comments made me start to think about the design.
Why are the points in the middle of the platform? If they had neem past the end then a loco could have just run around without moving the coaches.
Is coming into that Y prototypical?
Did locos refuel from the staithes or were they for selling coal?
Can only one loco operate here at a time with only one tablet? In which case it doesn't matter if it stops for water in the middle of the main approach. Does this mean that a good train couldn't come in while a passenger one was there?
This is where my 50 years in the wilderness has not helped. :-)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50404042076_3041b04eff_c.jpg)
That plan could work in 009. But perhaps with some modifications.
The fact that there is a platform at all is the first thing. Many narrow-gauge lines had ground level platforms.
It is quite common for a platform to go all the way to the end of the headshunt, even on some narrow-gauge lines.
In this case there is no room for the station building where the carriages would be when the loco runs round. Also, the platform finishes short of the run round point so a train that is the max length for the run round would need to be pulled further forward so all the carriages were in the platform.
Only after all the passengers had got off would the train be pushed back to where it could be run round.
Also note the location of the water crane, for a loco to use this it would need to push the coaches back into the head shunt.
It is also worth remembering that it was not only for passengers, good were often also loaded and unloaded to and from vans on platforms as well.
It looks like a three way point at the start of the station, as there are no 009 three-way electrofrog points you will need to use a LH and then one RH point and change the plan for these.
The Y point in the plan looks a lot larger radius than the 18 inch radius Peco 009 Y point, it is up to you if you use one but a normal LH or RH point with an approaching curve may look better.
I'll answer the coal question as well. There is no loco shed in that plan so it is unlikely a loco would stay overnight. Hence coaling facilities would be at the other end of the line. Watering facilities are different, a loco would have enough coal for its days work but doesn't carry enough water so needs topping up. The train would arrive, run round its train and fill up with water before attaching itself for its return journey. The staithes would be for the local coal merchant, not for loco use.
Back to the Welshpool as an example, when it initially opened Llanfair had no loco facilities and the water tower was a few hundred yards down the line. Coaling and maintenance were carried out at Welshpool. It was one engine in steam so the location of the water tower wasn't an issue. When the preservationists took over the HQ of the line was transferred to Llanfair as they lost the old town section and it took several years to re-open as for as Raven Square. So the loco shed and servicing facilities were moved to Llanfair. So now there are no servicing facilities at Welshpool apart from the water tower which the loco uses before heading back, note the the loco carries enough coal to make the return journey.
One other thing worth of note is that plan has a full signal box and token apparatus, if Llanfair in its pre-preservation days is anything to go by that's OTT for a small NG common carrier line. As built Llanfair had a small station building, goods shed, weighbridge and a urinal, that was it. In 1940 it had a larger goods shed, a couple of small warehouses (storage sheds, really), a yard crane plus some storage ground (probably for the coal merchant to load/unload the wagons). The only signalling was a ground frame at the entrance point. (All info from plans published in the Glynn Williams book.
The likelihood would be that only one engine would be used at any one time and either mixed trains where the goods wagons were shunted on arrival. If a second train was needed (fair days) then some sort of paper token would have been used, but from what I've read they just piled all the stock behind one loco (they only had three coaches, remember!). Rule of the day would be only two or three trains each way each day, with the morning and evening ones being mixed. Hence not many passenger trains survived once buses and coaches became more efficient and roads better.
Operation in preservation days is very different.
Quote from: Stephen Rainsbury on February 12, 2021, 14:10
Why are the points in the middle of the platform? If they had neem past the end then a loco could have just run around without moving the coaches.
Is coming into that Y prototypical?
Did locos refuel from the staithes or were they for selling coal?
Can only one loco operate here at a time with only one tablet? In which case it doesn't matter if it stops for water in the middle of the main approach. Does this mean that a good train couldn't come in while a passenger one was there?
I see with my slow typing this is largely redundant now, but hey ho!
Looking at the scale, it could be that passenger trains were just one carriage, perhaps two and the point is where it is because that length of release is needed for the loco to clear the point blades.
I think given the size of the nature of the location it would be rare for more than one train to be present. Even one train to present (except on alternate Wednesdays ;D ) However, the tablet would control which locomotive could leave the station limits and travel off to its destination. My guess is that if two engines were present and one left the other tablet/token would be locked in the mechanism until the first train had reached its destination or intermediate location where it was inserted into a similar machine which would then release the second tablet. (I'm glad I got to see the tokens being exchanged in their leather pouches on the Aberdeen to Elgin line when they were still in use.)
I understand that coal staithes were something of a trope at one time in railway modelling and were not actually all that common. Possibly just popular because Peco made a model of them. Also that they were quite a regional feature perhaps Northern English (it does sound like it might be a Viking word).
I believe that coal was as likely to be shovelled directly onto the back of cart or lorry or even directly onto the ground and bagged up. I'm not sure, but I think the coal was for distribution not refueling engines. It is water that is most likely to be consumed and taken on and there is little logistic sense in transporting coal to a small branch terminus if the bunker can hold enough for the (in all likelihood) short round trip.
I don't understand what you mean by the "Y".
If you want British NG termini of Common Carriers where the loco facilities were at the terminus at the opposite end try Hulme End on the Leek and Manifold, or Southwold. A Google search will show you the plans.
As ever do your research, there's plenty of information out there!
Quote from: Hobby on February 12, 2021, 16:01
The likelihood would be that only one engine would be used at any one time and either mixed trains where the goods wagons were shunted on arrival. If a second train was needed (fair days) then some sort of paper token would have been used, but from what I've read they just piled all the stock behind one loco (they only had three coaches, remember!). Rule of the day would be only two or three trains each way each day, with the morning and evening ones being mixed. Hence not many passenger trains survived once buses and coaches became more efficient and roads better.
Operation in preservation days is very different.
This was a freelance model base on prototypical operation during the 20-30s' but that all makes sense, thanks.
I am aiming for a preservation line so the punter will want to see more than one loco operational and mid summer maybe even three, including rail cars etc.
This would mean the introduction of something a little more sophisticated than the old token system, but the the little plastic punters would want to see that at work too. It could be argued that as TPWS is so common the company would be remiss not to fit that. (3d printer on standby)
Quote from: B.Meldon on February 12, 2021, 15:39
It looks like a three way point at the start of the station, as there are no 009 three-way electrofrog points you will need to use a LH and then one RH point and change the plan for these.
The Y point in the plan looks a lot larger radius than the 18 inch radius Peco 009 Y point, it is up to you if you use one but a normal LH or RH point with an approaching curve may look better.
All good points Brian. As I am using a Freem009 end plate on the board I have had to re-arrange the trackplan a little so the approach is in from the middle of the board, and I have bought 12" standard points throughout. Some from 009 Soc sales at a very good price!
Quote from: GraemeD on February 12, 2021, 16:42
I understand that coal staithes were something of a trope at one time in railway modelling and were not actually all that common. Possibly just popular because Peco made a model of them. Also that they were quite a regional feature perhaps Northern English (it does sound like it might be a Viking word).
I believe that coal was as likely to be shovelled directly onto the back of cart or lorry or even directly onto the ground and bagged up. I'm not sure, but I think the coal was for distribution not refueling engines. It is water that is most likely to be consumed and taken on and there is little logistic sense in transporting coal to a small branch terminus if the bunker can hold enough for the (in all likelihood) short round trip.
I don't understand what you mean by the "Y".
There was a Coal Yard right next to my local station when I was a lad, it is car park now, but you can just see the loading gauge in this photo, at the end of the left hand platform. In this the wagon doors opened onto raised staithes that could then be shoveled straight into sacks on the back of a lorry. Local legend has it that Henry cooper and his brother worked there when they were still very young as they saw it as good training.
The Y referred to the points on the approach, I seem to remember reading somewhere about not having them pointing that way to the incoming main line, but I might well have mis-read that.
(https://www.kentrail.org.uk/barnehurst-1970-08-16.jpg)
Quote from: Hobby on February 12, 2021, 16:44
As ever do your research, there's plenty of information out there!
Thanks, I have been but still find myself wondering about the reasoning behind a specific track plan. ::)
Aaaah - Branch line to Porthleven - I dream of seeing a 45 beside the quay. Coupled with the proposed light railway to The Lizard, Helston would have been such a busy place. The one road shed would certainly not have been enough. Dreaming is one of the best bits of railway modelling!!
Quote from: Stephen Rainsbury on February 12, 2021, 17:20
The Y referred to the points on the approach, I seem to remember reading somewhere about not having them pointing that way to the incoming main line, but I might well have mis-read that.
Thanks, I have been but still find myself wondering about the reasoning behind a specific track plan. ::)
I think the main concern is with not having facing points in double track operation where through, non-stopping trains are likely to take them at speed. I don't think being a Y point rather than LH or RH makes any difference as the distinction is one limited largely to models and permanent way engineers do not categorize points in that way.
Looking at the track plan there is an element of 'everything but the kitchen sink' in getting as much operational interest in a small portable layout.
Passenger service - check
Goods shed - check
Milk churns - check
Cattle dock - check
Coal staithes - check
NG transfer - check ;D
It looks as if part of the decision to use a three-way point is set by having three similar length boards and avoiding having points over the join or separating them either side of the join.
Regarding steam era train operations excellent resources (and another rabbit hole to fall into :D ) are:
https://signalbox.org/ (https://signalbox.org/)
Signalling in the age of steam by Michael Vaans.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Signalling-Age-Steam-Ian-Allan/dp/0711023506 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Signalling-Age-Steam-Ian-Allan/dp/0711023506)
TPWS?!!!
What exactly are you modelling Stephen?
Is that a man with a flag? ;)
Quote from: Hobby on February 12, 2021, 18:45
TPWS?!!!
What exactly are you modelling Stephen?
I was only being partially serious, but as a heritage line they would want to squash in as many paying services as possible, more than a simple token system was designed for. ;)
Quote from: GraemeD on February 12, 2021, 18:01
Regarding steam era train operations excellent resources (and another rabbit hole to fall into :D ) are:
https://signalbox.org/ (https://signalbox.org/)
That is a really useful site, just the track plans themselves are fascinating :-)
Quote from: Stephen Rainsbury on February 13, 2021, 03:09
Quote from: Hobby on February 12, 2021, 18:45
TPWS?!!!
What exactly are you modelling Stephen?
I was only being partially serious, but as a heritage line they would want to squash in as many paying services as possible, more than a simple token system was designed for. ;)
For a modern heritage railway then I think radio electronic token block working might possibly (or potentially) be employed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Electronic_Token_Block (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Electronic_Token_Block)
It is, many use it these days and it's a damn sight cheaper... As for squeezing as many services as they can, well yes and no, putting on more services creates more wear and tear on the stock which has to be paid for, and also there are no "peak times" as such where large numbers turn up. I still feel you are thinking about how a fully fledged "main line" SG railway would operate, rather than a typical British NG which was the point being made by Chris, although he was talking specifically about track plans, it's easy to extend it out into operation which is also very different to "main line" SG.
If you want to run a high intensity NG lines, Stephen, then forget the UK, we simply don't do that sort of line over here and never have. The only one I could think of would be the Cork, Blackrock and Passage Railway in Eire which not only had double track but also rush hour services, but that was back in the 1920s and 30s. For a modern line with all the gubbins you seem to want and an intensive service, including steam specials, have a look at the Zillertalbahn in Austria.
I imagine that one thing that affects the nature of operation and control of movement is line length (or rather he travel time) on top of things such as passenger density. If a train can get to its destination and back again before enough passengers have gathered to travel on the next journey there is little point in having more than one train operating - until the engine needs refueling and carriages cleaned.
I bet there is some clever equation for calculating the crossover point where lengthening trains vs running more frequently and ultimately running multiple trains occurs.
Quote from: Stephen Rainsbury on February 12, 2021, 17:20
All good points Brian. As I am using a Freem009 end plate on the board I have had to re-arrange the trackplan a little so the approach is in from the middle of the board, and I have bought 12" standard points throughout. Some from 009 Soc sales at a very good price!
I would strongly recommend that you avoid using the Peco 009 points that were made before they were updated in 2010.
The 12inch LH, RH and the 18-inch Y 009 points made before 2010 can give running problems, the 2010 update included far better geometry through the points, especially on the curves, a more constant curve through the point, previously they had two straights with a curve in the middle, extended check rails and the straight is actually straight. The straight was previously curved slightly.
The quick way to tell if they are the updated points is the pivot for the point blades. The pre-2010 points have a fishplate blade pivot, the updated 2010 onwards points have a proper pivot for the blades.
The pre 2010 versions may be cheaper second hand, but it is well worth spending extra on the updated version.
You could allways sell the ones you do not want on e-bay, as I have no doubt some mug would purchase them!!
Thanks Brian, I already checked they are the later ones.
Quote from: GraemeD on February 12, 2021, 16:42
I understand that coal staithes were something of a trope at one time in railway modelling and were not actually all that common. Possibly just popular because Peco made a model of them. Also that they were quite a regional feature perhaps Northern English (it does sound like it might be a Viking word).
From Old Norse 'stoth' - a landing stage
Yes, looking online to check my facts in case I was mis-remembering or making its up (after posting of course!) I found there is not a lot in the way of photos of prototypes but loads of models. Also I guess that what are referred to as staithes on layout plans should perhaps really be called bunkers (which I can see would cause confusion) or bins as they are nearly always modelled as ground level items not raised loading platforms.
Now that's how to do it! :)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ca/51/72/ca5172cd52ef1c9d5d922268327893f9.jpg)
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2922/14074090514_547ce5287a_z.jpg)
Quote from: GraemeD on February 13, 2021, 08:22
For a modern heritage railway then I think radio electronic token block working might possibly (or potentially) be employed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Electronic_Token_Block (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Electronic_Token_Block)
That would be an option, and reminded me that I really do need to get a colour printer to make signs like that. That is going to have to wait until after we move, the debate is already how many pantechnicons we are going to need.
That site actually got me slightly excited for a minute, I thought it said "Modernisation of The Caribbean" which took me back to the idea of a sea and sunshine micro layout based on "Death in Paradise" 8), but it was Cambrian which does not conjure up the same image.
Quote from: GraemeD on February 15, 2021, 11:01
Also I guess that what are referred to as staithes on layout plans should perhaps really be called bunkers (which I can see would cause confusion) or bins as they are nearly always modelled as ground level items not raised loading platforms.
That would make sense.
Can you imagine making a model of one of those staithes though, even if you 3D printed it in sections I wouldn't mind betting that each one would have to be slightly different to the others.
Quote from: Hobby on February 13, 2021, 09:19
If you want to run a high intensity NG lines, Stephen, then forget the UK, we simply don't do that sort of line over here and never have.
When we talk about high intensity, I am thinking heritage line, first Saturday in the month between May and October, when grandparents bring the ankle biters down to see Thomas the Choo-choo. Every bit of stock that is working would be wheeled out including all the lovingly restored good vehicles, scrubbed and shining in the sun.
I am not sure how I feel about actually operating a layout, I suspect that for me this is more about problem solving and engineering but I like to keep the options open.
I spent 40 years making and restoring synthesizers, but once they were working I lost interest. Since getting back into Railways I have only had one out for an hour and that is now back under its dust cover, very unloved. I am hoping when we move to get a room large enough for Music kit and Railways, but Mrs R has other ideas.
I suspect if you had a root around you'd find someone who produces those signs for modern image SG railways in 00.
BTW some use telephones to do the same job, either (in the old days) above ground cabling, or (modern) below/on ground cabling.
Quote from: Stephen Rainsbury on February 15, 2021, 11:02
That would be an option, and reminded me that I really do need to get a colour printer to make signs like that.
This was what you call tempting fate because the following day my twenty year old monochrome laser printer printed its last sheet as the motor only "blipped" for half a second then switched off.
I have replaced it with an Epsom refillable Inkjet printer so may well be able to actually print some of those signs after all.
Quote from: Stephen Rainsbury on February 23, 2021, 00:45
Quote from: Stephen Rainsbury on February 15, 2021, 11:02
That would be an option, and reminded me that I really do need to get a colour printer to make signs like that.
This was what you call tempting fate because the following day my twenty year old monochrome laser printer printed its last sheet as the motor only "blipped" for half a second then switched off.
I have replaced it with an Epsom refillable Inkjet printer so may well be able to actually print some of those signs after all.
I have found that the inkjet printers are not as good as the laser printers for printing signs etc for models.
I found that even on the highest setting the ink tends to spread on the paper giving slightly blurred edges where with a laser it remains sharp.
Perhaps different paper is the answer, but even on expensive photo paper the results I found were not much better.
I also found that for occasional use inkjets were not good at all! The inks tended to dry out jamming the print heads and when working the yield from the inks was very low. Some even have inks with expiree dates that need changing even when almost full, just because they are past their use by date!
My last inkjet printed lasted over 5 years on occasional use, Brian! Whilst it's not ideal they do work and for the price of one laser printer you can get half a dozen cheap inkjets that'll do just as well when using fine settings...
However I can't see why you'd want to go to all the trouble of finding a suitable photo of the sign (no easy job!), resizing it to 4mm scale, and then printing it out... When there's lots of manufacturers out there that do them properly and cheaply. The modern style of signs Stephen's talking about are common to both NG and SG so are available off the shelf with a bit of googling.
Quote from: Hobby on February 23, 2021, 10:43
My last inkjet printed lasted over 5 years on occasional use, Brian! Whilst it's not ideal they do work and for the price of one laser printer you can get half a dozen cheap inkjets that'll do just as well when using fine settings...
However I can't see why you'd want to go to all the trouble of finding a suitable photo of the sign (no easy job!), resizing it to 4mm scale, and then printing it out... When there's lots of manufacturers out there that do them properly and cheaply. The modern style of signs Stephen's talking about are common to both NG and SG so are available off the shelf with a bit of googling.
Yes I agree it is far better to purchase the signs you need rather than printing them.
Quote from: B.Meldon on February 23, 2021, 10:31
I also found that for occasional use inkjets were not good at all! The inks tended to dry out jamming the print heads and when working the yield from the inks was very low. Some even have inks with expiree dates that need changing even when almost full, just because they are past their use by date!
The new generation use ink reservoirs not cartridges. They come with a supply of ink that is claimed to be 90 times more than that in previous cartridges, but the "get you started" cartridges that they used to supply were only enough for a few hundred pages so that isn't saying much.
A third party refill pack is under £20 which is supposed to do 4000 pages, however the Epson own brand is best part of £100 and they don't quote a number of pages. Black ink by itself is under £10 which should do me at east a year where as I was paying around £20 a year before for toner.
I bought it on the recommendation of a photography mad friend who uses one now as his main printer. At high resolution it is almost twice previous generation inkjets (5000x1400 dpi) and higher than laser printers at the same end of the scale.
The constitution of the ink is also improved and the posters he did for me last year were amazing, although he did use gloss paper.
It might not be the best printer but Which and "What Camera" both put it in their top 10 for my price range.
Quote from: Hobby on February 23, 2021, 10:43
However I can't see why you'd want to go to all the trouble of finding a suitable photo of the sign (no easy job!), resizing it to 4mm scale, and then printing it out... When there's lots of manufacturers out there that do them properly and cheaply. The modern style of signs Stephen's talking about are common to both NG and SG so are available off the shelf with a bit of googling.
Hi Blair,
You are right about posters and I already have several packs which I will be using, however there are plenty of other things I want to try, not least of which is trying printed buildings. I don't know why I have never really been drawn to them, but the results speak for themselves, so long as you avoid bald corners some people seem to get some remarkable results.
I was very taken by an article in one of the mags last year where somebody "re-dressed" his model inspired by Bath station to represent various eras, and I want to try that. Apart from changing vehicles, figures and platform clutter, one of the key changes was signage, including running in boards.
So I quiet like the idea of of trying that for example 1920s-30s Busy but not well funded, 40s-50s run down and still ahauling goods, 60's-70's virtually derelict, 80's restoration, 90's+ heritage visitor attraction. Changes would be running in boards on posts (using D-type connectors pins and sockets) , posters (not sure how to fix them yet, probably magnets somehow, bill boards outside the station, and fold out newspaper displays etc.
I do how ever accept that for some heritage lines there idea of restored is about as accurate as Morris Dancers in a shopping precinct. If it doesn't work then fine, I will have enjoyed the journey ;D
Other ideas I have seen and want to try include printing tarpaulins, spraying them with water and then folding them over wagons, and printing ISO containers which would double as storage units on my "Through the ages" layout as storage in the middle years.
I have just seen a web page where somebody has supplied images of several dozen seat coverings and curtains, mainly SR, so you can get exactly the right tone in your rolling stock. I might just try that once.
Quote from: Stephen Rainsbury on February 23, 2021, 13:57
... however there are plenty of other things I want to try, not least of which is trying printed buildings. I don't know why I have never really been drawn to them, but the results speak for themselves, so long as you avoid bald corners some people seem to get some remarkable results.
I've used home made printed buildings on my layout (which appeared in February's News). I made them mainly because I couldn't find anything commercially available of the size and style of building I wanted. The other reason being that, like a real railway, there was a serious budget overrun on the project and it was a case of try creating my own buildings or not have any.
The buildings look fairly good at normal viewing distance, but the camera is a very harsh critic and shows up all the flaws! (and bald corners!)
Quote from: Peter Boulter on February 23, 2021, 15:18
The buildings look fairly good at normal viewing distance, but the camera is a very harsh critic and shows up all the flaws! (and bald corners!)
I think they look fine, did you download them or buy the ready printed?
I found loads last year that were free to download, not necessarily the best quality but I am looking forward to trying them.
Quote from: Stephen Rainsbury on February 23, 2021, 17:51
Quote from: Peter Boulter on February 23, 2021, 15:18
The buildings look fairly good at normal viewing distance, but the camera is a very harsh critic and shows up all the flaws! (and bald corners!)
I think they look fine, did you download them or buy the ready printed?
I found loads last year that were free to download, not necessarily the best quality but I am looking forward to trying them.
Thank you for your kind words about my buildings. I created them myself in Photoshop Elements using various textures, doors, windows etc from Google images often with the colours amended to suit my requirements. Then they were printed out onto 200gsm white card on my colour inkjet printer. The 200gsm card was then mounted on whatever thick card I could find.
I hadn't thought of that approach, it would certainly help with my freelance "somewhere in Kent line" as I haven't seen models in the style (flint clad) that I was after :-)
Stephen, I don't think you have, so apologies if I missed it, but I haven't spotted which Epson printer you are singing the praises of? I've been an Epson user for many years but mainly at the low end of the range.
My current one is nearing end of useful life (XP422 and uses TQ18 "Daisy" cartridges). It has served me very well over the past 5 or 6 years for home rather than industrial/business use, including printing photos - the output quality being fine as long as you use proper photo quality paper, if you use bog standard 80 or 90 gsm document paper then you get what you'd expect and colour density particularly in the red spectrum is very poor compared to a colour laser, but very comparable on proper gloss or matte photo paper.
During the life of this printer, I have also come to the conclusion through user experience that using the proper Epson cartridges (at twice the price of clones) is actually a better option as you don't get anything like the amount of times you have to clean the heads and therefore waste ink and a better quality print. Forking out for the high capacity ones (TQ18XL in my case) is also much more economical as for approaching twice the price of the standard cartridge you get well over 3 times the life, particularly for the black one.
Mick
Quote from: MickT on February 24, 2021, 13:27
Stephen, I don't think you have, so apologies if I missed it, but I haven't spotted which Epson printer you are singing the praises of? I've been an Epson user for many years but mainly at the low end of the range.
Its this one Mick, currently £180 at Rymans
https://www.ryman.co.uk/epson-ecotank-et-2710-inkjet-printer-1
(https://www.epson.co.uk/files/assets/converted/1500m-1500m/2/3/0/0/23002-productpicture-hires-en-et2710_l3150_hero.png.png)
Thanks Stephen, I'll have a look at that one. It's 4 times the price I normally pay every 5 years or so for a printer, but if it is 4 times better then it's worth considering!!
Mick
The setup instructions were awful. 3 multi-language sheets in no specified order, one that says you have bought a printer, one what's in the box and one that shows you how to fit ink.
The main manual was on the DVD but that didn't help, much.
Unfortunately when I thought it was ready it just sat there turning the motor on and off and with the ink light flashing. I rang Epson and apparently it is supposed to do that for 5-15 minutes while the first lot of ink is drawn through by repeating the head cleaning sequence.
The scanner software had to be downloaded and then spent ages updating itself.
All in all it probably only took 45 minutes to get it up and running, but most of that was trying to work out what to do next.
Have you tried a laser printer to make transfers? It has the advantage, apparently, that no protective varnish is needed after printing.
Quote from: engerth399 on February 25, 2021, 08:04
Have you tried a laser printer to make transfers? It has the advantage, apparently, that no protective varnish is needed after printing.
I have used a laser printer to produce transfers and they are a lot less hassle to make - because as you say, there is no need to seal them to stop the ink running. The downside was that I used an office machine (I asked first!)
Yes, it is straight forward and really no different to printing on labels or overhead transparencies (who remembers them? :D ). The main issue though is the density or opacity of the image if printing on a clear substrate/backing and using the transfer on a dark background.
My solution was to print on a white backing and print a border of the same colour as the surface the transfer was being placed on so I did not have to cut the transfer out exactly - however it was only on a black surface. I imagine with enough experimentation it might be possible to get a good match to other colours.
I've heard of people making effectively complete 'vinyls' for covering an entire surface such as a tank or cab side but not tried it as I think it might need the transfer softening fluid and so on.
Quote from: engerth399 on February 25, 2021, 08:04
Have you tried a laser printer to make transfers? It has the advantage, apparently, that no protective varnish is needed after printing.
Yes, my last printer was a monochrome laser and I used to make decal for music projects and it worked really well.
Having said that I was often lettering on polished aluminium so used to spray the surface first with Games Workshop gloss 'Ardcote, then over spray afterwards with matt or silk. This gave a much harder wearing surface and went a long way to covering the decal edge.
The other issue was that it could only do black lettering.
Quote from: GraemeD on February 25, 2021, 11:16
I've heard of people making effectively complete 'vinyls' for covering an entire surface such as a tank or cab side but not tried it as I think it might need the transfer softening fluid and so on.
Yes, I have done guitar "stomp boxes" by painting the box white, sticking down a mainly playing card sized decal with gaps for the white to show though.
Blending this into the rest of the box took a bit of planning but normal worked well.
Mind you it was easier in the old days to use white Letraset.
I am planning to experiment with loco lining at some point ;)
Another thing I've been meaning to try (it needs a completed and painted model to try it on :) is to get a reasonable match between coloured surround on a transfer printed on a white carrier and then try 'feathering' in the painted colour by 'tickling' the edges. The brush work need only get close to, but not right up to the lettering
The theory is that the eye is not particularly good at detecting small changes in colour especially when next to strong contrasts such as might be found in lettering. I think it is why the cheap and crude colour printing of old comics worked. Often the registration of he colours was pretty poor compared to the black outlines but the reader had to look quite closely to see that the colouring was not within the lines.
Some paints my affect the transfer so it may only work with (say) water-based ones.
Quote from: GraemeD on February 25, 2021, 14:11
Another thing I've been meaning to try (it needs a completed and painted model to try it on :) is to get a reasonable match between coloured surround on a transfer printed on a white carrier and then try 'feathering' in the painted colour by 'tickling' the edges. The brush work need only get close to, but not right up to the lettering
...
Some paints my affect the transfer so it may only work with (say) water-based ones.
That would be a very useful trick. On the stomp boxes (effects pedals) I would start by painting them black (or another dark colour from the Games Workshop range) print the decal to match, then mask off a spray a white area just smaller than the decal. Fix that in place, spray it with 'Ardcote and let that dry*. Next day I suspend a piece of card slightly smaller than the decal area above the decal using blue tack and then mist another coat of the spray over the whole thing so it blends the edges of the decal.
* The 'Ardcote is to stop the blue tack damaging the decal, and if there is a little overspray you can normally get it off with meths on a cotton bud.
Of course this is 3 or 4 times bigger than trying to do the same thing on a loco, and nobody really looks at them that closely.