Here's a question which has been going round in my head for a while:
Did narrow gauge trains run after dark?
I suppose I'm really thinking of UK railways here. Narrow gauge 'main lines' in the Americas, Asia and Europe almost certainly would have done – almost every Continental H0 model has headlights, for example, presumably at least partly for night-time running.
In the UK, a railway providing a passenger service would probably have run after dark if the timetable dictated – though changing to a winter timetable might have avoided the need to do so. But what about purely freight-carrying or industrial lines? Did trains simply stop when it got dark? Did any of them run after dark with or without headlights?
I posed this question at our recent Wessex Narrow Gauge Modellers Zoom meeting. Pat C. was sure the Ffestiniog ran trains in the dark (with headlights?) and thought the Selsey Tramway railcars had headlights. Presumably there were others. I wonder if there is any timetable evidence on this (though I imagine photographic evidence is unlikely, for obvious reasons).
Thoughts and information welcomed.
David.
Would have thought so, many industrial sites were 24 hour operations so they'd have had to, of course mine locos always run in the dark!! ;)
The Ffestiniog certainly ran trains at night. I remember spending holidays with my parents in Porthmadog and one of the highlights of the holiday was a trip, or two, on the late night train.
David,
Narrow gauge railways definitely ran in the dark in the UK. Here are just a coule of examples.
The Welshpool & Llanfair timetable for October 1908 shows the first departure from Welshpool at 5.05am arriving at Llanfair at 6.15am. At the other end of the day the 8pm from Llanfair arrived at Welshpool at 8.50pm.
The Southwold Railway timetable for January 1929 shows the last train as being the 6.37pm from Halesworth arriving at 7.18pm at Southwold.
All of the above would have been after dark. Neither railway was equipped with headlights in the sense of showing the driver where he was going. They probably should have been using oil lamps at the front of the train, but only to give some kind of warning to others that a train was coming. Photos show these were not always present!
Julian
Quote from: Hobby on October 05, 2020, 10:52
...of course mine locos always run in the dark!! ;)
Indeed. Patrick suggested that some slate workers rarely saw daylight, travelling to work on the Ffestiniog in darkness, spending all day down the mines and then returning home by train in the dark.
Thanks for the timetable examples, Julian. I wonder who was unfortunate enough to have to catch the 05.05 from Welshpool?
David.
And who was the person unfortunate enough to have to be at the shed in time to light up the fire for the loco that was going to pull the 05:05 from Welshpool?
For some industrial NG examples, the line at Sittingbourne, now Sittingbourne and Kelmsley, ran trains 24 hours a day. On a smaller scale the brickworks lines at both Rochford and Great Wakering often ran in the hours of darkness on winter evenings. It was only in the last few years from the early 1980's that the locos at the brickworeks had any electric on them at all and had lights fitted. Prior to that there were no lights at all other than some fixed lighting at the road crossings near both the works and on the excavator at the far end.
You also have to remember that lighting outside larger towns was quite unusual in the earlier years of the NG railways, even up to WW2 much of the lighting in homes was still candles or oil lamps. So careful choice of the period you are modelling and where it is located is essential for a night-time 009 model. In many cases the NG lines ran through areas with no lights at all!
Quote from: Peter Boulter on October 05, 2020, 15:32And who was the person unfortunate enough to have to be at the shed in time to light up the fire for the loco that was going to pull the 05:05 from Welshpool?
Yes, I thought that, too - hardly worth going home after bringing in the 8.50pm arrival! Maybe the fire was kept in overnight?
That's an interesting point you raise, Brian - we are so used to everything being brightly illuminated these days that we forget how gloomy the world used to be after dark until relatively recently. Maybe everyone's night vision was better developed in those days?
Running mainly within an industrial site like a brickworks or paper mill was one thing, but what about railways which ran through the wider landscape, like the Leighton Buzzard and Purbeck clay lines, I wonder?
David.
Quote from: clayliner on October 06, 2020, 09:45That's an interesting point you raise, Brian - we are so used to everything being brightly illuminated these days that we forget how gloomy the world used to be after dark until relatively recently. Maybe everyone's night vision was better developed in those days?
I doubt it, most people just didn't go out after dark, especially in rural areas.
As for the early start, that's normal for railways, getting up at 0200 was normal for me until I changed to permanent lates! How do you think early trains are run, and late ones, come to that? It's by us railwaymen getting up at obscene hours in the morning and getting back long after the rest of you are tucked up in bed... The change from steam to diesel and electric didn't change things other than less of us have to get up early or go to be late! ;)
"You also have to remember that lighting outside larger towns was quite unusual in the earlier years of the NG railways, even up to WW2 much of the lighting in homes was still candles or oil lamps."
And later, in the 1950's an aunt of mine had gas lights downstairs but only oil lamps upstairs, some were quite decorative and I have two of her lamps, converted to electricity. My grand mother had electricity downstairs but candles upstairs.
QuoteHobby: As for the early start, that's normal for railways, getting up at 0200 was normal for me until I changed to permanent lates! How do you think early trains are run, and late ones, come to that?
Do I hear violins, Blair?! Having worked through many a night during my years at work I certainly appreciate that essential services do not run themselves between 5 and 9!
As for not going out after dark, I guess the 'night-time economy' hadn't yet been invented either. Probably even pubs closed at ridiculously early hours (like ten o'clock ;) )
I'm still wondering who - if anybody - would have been on the 5.05 from Welshpool. Commuters were still in the future and most workers would have walked to work anyway; the morning papers would certainly not have reached the Welsh borders by that time (though the previous day's might just have!), ditto the mails, and the cattle and coal could well have travelled later in the day.
My hunch is that the 5.05 was primarily to provide the first morning service to Welshpool from Llanfair (do you by any chance know the time of the first up service, Julian?) I expect the journey time was quite long but even so I imagine one might have had to wait for an hour or two (in the rain, more than likely) in Welshpool for the shops, businesses and the market to open up.
David.
I remember that the platform lights at Ashford (Middlesex) railway station were still gas lamps in the early 1970's.
It was quite strange coming off the electrically lit street onto a gas lit platform, it was a different quality of light that gave the impression that you were in another world. Somehow the station didn't seem so friendly once the gas lamps were replaced.
No violins David, why would there be, I knew what I was getting into but just replying to your earlier comment about hardly worth going to bed by pointing out that such shifts are normal on railways so nothing out of the ordinary. I'd agree that it's likely the fire was left in overnight to speed things up. Though I also suspect that it would be others that prepared the loco and not the train crew. Welshpool was a big station back in Cambrian days so there would have been plenty of staff around to do it. I'd also agree that it was mainly an ECS move, though passenger figures were never the line's strong point until the preservation era!
Quote from: clayliner on October 06, 2020, 18:58
do you by any chance know the time of the first up service, Julian?)
David.
The first service in October 1908 from Llanfair was at 6.35am arriving at Welshpool at 7.30am.
The working of the first train was quite complex. The 5.05 am train from Welshpool to Llanfair was a goods train, except on Llanfair market day (first Friday of the month) when it was a mixed train. The first Llanfair to Welshpool train was a mixed train on Mondays, Tuesdays and Wednesdays and it was a goods train on Thursday, Friday and Saturday. Welshpool market day was Monday.
Julian
Did they have WTTs (Working Timetables) back then, Julian? All the books have the passenger timetables but I've not seen any WTTs which have both goods and passenger workings published. I know BR would have had one back in the 50s but by then it was goods only.
Quote from: B.Meldon on October 06, 2020, 09:22
You also have to remember that lighting outside larger towns was quite unusual in the earlier years of the NG railways, even up to WW2 much of the lighting in homes was still candles or oil lamps. So careful choice of the period you are modelling and where it is located is essential for a night-time 009 model. In many cases the NG lines ran through areas with no lights at all!
One of the stories told of the Keith and Dufftown "Whisky" Line https://keith-dufftown-railway.co.uk/ (https://keith-dufftown-railway.co.uk/) (OK, not NG but an NG model version of it has been built) was that when electric lights first appeared in the carriages serving Keith, local residents used to buy a ticket from Keith Junction to Keith Town just to witness this wonder of the modern world. It is well under a mile by foot and probably not much more than half a mile by train.
Quote from: Hobby on October 07, 2020, 08:33
Did they have WTTs (Working Timetables) back then, Julian? All the books have the passenger timetables but I've not seen any WTTs which have both goods and passenger workings published. I know BR would have had one back in the 50s but by then it was goods only.
Blair,
I think they probably did, but by another name. The Cartwright & Russell book on the W&L has as appendix 4 timetables showing both goods and mixed workings for October 1908, July 1925 and October 1942. In each case they are described as from the 'Service Timetables' of the Cambrian and then the GWR. Whether they are precisely the same as a WTT, I don't know.
Julian
Thanks, will have a look when I get all my books out or storage.