Does anybody know where I could buy components for hand rails like these on a GWR Toad please?
I have found some for Locos but the fittings are 1mm diameter which I think would look wrong in this context.
Or do I just use brass rod and solder it?
Thanks
Stephen
(https://www.svrwiki.com/mediawiki-1.28.2/images/e/e7/GWR_17410b_20180626.jpg)
If you want tiny handrail knobs then you need to use 2mm scale ones.
For example nbrass sell a pack of 12 for £2.70, these use .25mm wire handrail, that they also sell. Here is a link:
https://www.nbrasslocos.co.uk/fitall.html#WIRE
However these are tiny and quite dificult to work with. I just use the 00 scale ones that are perhaps a little too large.
Other makes are available. (I think?)
Quote from: B.Meldon on March 05, 2020, 09:28
If you want tiny handrail knobs then you need to use 2mm scale ones.
Thanks I will look at them, but good to know they are fiddly. In that vase maybe back to plan A which is I have some .7mm rod and make a very short sleeve from heatshrink sleeve to represent the brackets.
Stephen
An old-fashioned approach is to take some thin wire (they always seemed to say fuse wire, if you can still get it), wrap around the handrail and twist the ends together. A thin card spacer is used distance the handrail away from the body and the twisted end soldered or glued from the inside.
I suppose if one was really keen (or masochistic) one could file or scrape wire to a half round shape, wrap around the handrail and pinch to make a tiny cotter pin.
That's not actually too difficult, if fiddly. The hard part is making them sufficiently similar in appearance and in sufficient quantitiy, or having the patience to make lots and lots of them and select ones that look similar enough for use on individual locos.
I think if was to try it again I might solder the wire like a link in Veroboard to hold it taught and stop it rolling. The trick is to draw-file the wire and not file across. I might give it another go sometime and try to make enough for a loco. I used a Boots diamond file (sold for filing feet - one of my best bargains when they were on offer years back and a favourite file) and the back of a scalpel blade for scraping.
Jewelry suppliers sell half-round wire, but I've not seen it thin enough.
Quote from: GraemeD on March 05, 2020, 12:15
An old-fashioned approach is to take some thin wire (they always seemed to say fuse wire, if you can still get it), wrap around the handrail and twist the ends together. A thin card spacer is used distance the handrail away from the body and the twisted end soldered or glued from the inside.
Thanks that sounds like a plan. I have some thin brass rod to make the actual hand rails so need to make a width jig to bend each end round. I could trim some cores out of some 7 core wire for the brackets which like you say could be soldered on using a plain veroboard template. If I painted that with primer filler before fixing I reckon it would look OK .
Thanks that's plan C and I like it. I just need to get the awful plastic ribs trimmed down now.
I make couple to remind myself what I did. The mistake I made this time was bending the handrail-knob-wire round the handrail-wire itself without supporting the handrail-knob-wire at the apex so the bend looked like a V rather than a U, i.e. it kinked rather wrapped around, so that when I clinched the ends together round the handrail to make a keyhole-shaped or Omega-shape cotter pin the wrap around the handrail looked like () rather than O.
I just used some single-strand electronics hookup wire and possibly the copper work-hardened too and I should have annealed it before bending.
I've just found my source on my bookshelf -
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Miniature-Locomotive-Construction-John-Ahern/dp/0853440751 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Miniature-Locomotive-Construction-John-Ahern/dp/0853440751)
Though my copy is older than me! I can't remember where and when got it.
Quote from: GraemeD on March 05, 2020, 16:15
I've just found my source on my bookshelf -
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Miniature-Locomotive-Construction-John-Ahern/dp/0853440751 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Miniature-Locomotive-Construction-John-Ahern/dp/0853440751)
Thanks for this Graeme, I am going to experiment with this in a minute.
That book looks interesting and has good reviews, I may well buy that next time I place an Amazon order :-)
Stephen
I just reading a 1948 edition of Ahren's book at the moment...
Coming back to handrails I tend to use 0.3 mm wire, and as this scales to (as near as dammit) 1" diameter full size. I've not tried using thinner flexible wire (fuse wire or something stripped from electrical flex) having picked up a selection of handrail knobs over the years (including some designed for N / 2mm scale, but I wonder if the fine wire approach will give enough strength to support the handrails.
As a suggestion - and I've not tried this - I wonder if using the thin flexible wire as a long U shape slipped over the handrail and then tightened into position by twisting the 2 ends together would wor. This would pull the fine wire tight to the handrail and also produce a thicker 'shank' to support the handrails, especially if a little solder was run into the twist to reinforce it (and hold it in place on the handrail).
Quote from: GraemeD on March 05, 2020, 16:15
I make couple to remind myself what I did. The mistake I made this time was bending the handrail-knob-wire round the handrail-wire itself without supporting the handrail-knob-wire at the apex so the bend looked like a V rather than a U, i.e. it kinked rather wrapped around, so that when I clinched the ends together round the handrail to make a keyhole-shaped or Omega-shape cotter pin the wrap around the handrail looked like () rather than O.
I just tried some 0.25mm insulated copper wire around a length of paperclip. It was fiddly at first but found that wrapping it a few times round a nail helped no end. I didn't exactly grip tight but lit looks about right and being slightly loose means that it will be able to accommodate any slight inaccuracies in my drilling.
I am starring to wonder if I should assemble it, dry fit it to get the holes lined up, put a spot of superglue on the handle to keep it in place then paint it before fixing it permanently in place.
Stephen
PS I bough that book. At that price it seemed rude not to :-)
Quote from: JulienW on March 05, 2020, 22:24
As a suggestion - and I've not tried this - I wonder if using the thin flexible wire as a long U shape slipped over the handrail and then tightened into position by twisting the 2 ends together would wor. This would pull the fine wire tight to the handrail and also produce a thicker 'shank' to support the handrails, especially if a little solder was run into the twist to reinforce it (and hold it in place on the handrail).
Ahh that's what I thought Graeme was suggesting and yes it works quite well. I want to dry fit it in the plastic and then fix the position of the support so it will have to be superglue and soldering would melt the body, and I couldn't solder it afterwards as that releases cyanide gas! If I dry fit it can then remove it and prime it with primer/filler which should disguise the supports even more :-)
Thanks Julien :)
Ahh now there is interesting.. I am not sure that I like this as much as the original, but this is how it was done in the final batch. The pipe was 1 3/32" gas pipe which is 0.37mm in 00 scale. I think that would have to be a bit thicker in practice.
(https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/shopimages/articles/extra/950592_01.jpg)
(https://forum.009society.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gwr.org.uk%2Fnotes%2Faa23-handrails.jpg&hash=277f46d1745691daf114b79f7f6aefa6ff172061)
Quote from: Stephen Rainsbury on March 05, 2020, 22:41
<snipped> The pipe was 1 3/32" gas pipe which is 0.37mm in 00 scale. I think that would have to be a bit thicker in practice.
Assuming you want white handrails you'll need to add a layer of paint to whatever wire you end up using. I'd therefore suggest that you don't want to go too thick otherwise you risk having the handrails overpowering the van, especially if they are going to be white (or a similar bright colour) on a dark grey background.
Using 0.3 mm wire may sound like it would not be strong enough but unless you are really ham-fisted it should be OK as most of the stuff I've seen on sale (that comes in packs of so meny lengths of straight wire) is fairly stiff, and you can make the wire harder (rolling the straight lengths between two metal plates should not alter the diameter but will harden the wire, as will using a steel bunishing tool) to withstand reasonable handling. At a push you could go up to 0.45mm wire, but I'd have though by the time you get to 0.7mm with a layer of paint the result will be more like (3") drainpipe than 1" gas pipe!
For the stantions as shown in the latest photos you could use fine brass or plastic angle. I know that 1 x 1 mm brass angle is available from the likes of Eileen's Emporium but you may be hard-pressed to get plastic as fine as that (the main issue for me is not the overall size but the thickness of the flanges).
The other thought looking at the set up on the final batch would be to use a combination of the finest plastic angle section you can get to make the stantions at the corners which are then drilled to take fine plastic rod - I'd suggest a maximum of 20 thou (0.6mm), though you can make this sort of rod by heating and streching the sprues from a plastic kit over a candle flame (an old trick used by the aircraft modellers to make fine rod to make wire radio areials from) - and the whole thing assembled using solvent. The drawback might be that it will break rather than bend, but it may be easier to repair with a dab of solvent weld.
Hope that helps...
Quote from: JulienW on March 06, 2020, 09:35
.. you can make the wire harder (rolling the straight lengths between two metal plates should not alter the diameter but will harden the wire, as will using a steel bunishing tool) to withstand reasonable handling. At a push you could go up to 0.45mm wire, but I'd have though by the time you get to 0.7mm with a layer of paint the result will be more like (3") drainpipe than 1" gas pipe!
A quick rummage in the "Building Materials" box found some 0.5mm brass rod*, would that need burnishing? If so could I do that at home with basic tools?
Quote from: JulienW on March 06, 2020, 09:35
For the stantions as shown in the latest photos you could use fine brass or plastic angle. I know that 1 x 1 mm brass angle is available from the likes of Eileen's Emporium but you may be hard-pressed to get plastic as fine as that (the main issue for me is not the overall size but the thickness of the flanges).
I have both brass and plastic 1mm angle strips* :-)
Quote from: JulienW on March 06, 2020, 09:35
The other thought looking at the set up on the final batch would be to use a combination of the finest plastic angle section you can get to make the stantions at the corners which are then drilled to take fine plastic rod
Thanks that is all very useful indeed. I think I marginally prefer the look of the early ones so I think I am going to carry on with both for now and decide which to use as I go along.
The thinnest plastic rod I have is 1.2mm but I think I can get some thing thinner locally so I might look for that. I have tried the heating and pulling method to and you are right it can work, but the results were very brittle and it didn't last very long, so I might just buy some.
*I am not really that well stocked, this was all bought for my Jouef Decauville restoration project, which is currently on hold until I get my test track back and can test it :-)
Thanks Julien your experience here is invaluable :-)
EDIT: I suppose that I could do the whole thing in soldered brass using a veroboard jig and just fit the rails as completed assemblies, but how the heck to I accurately drill the holes in 1mm brass angle? Or would I be better off just doing a butt soldered joint, using another jig to hold the rail in place?
Stephen
When I need stiff wire for handrails I snip off 'bristles' from a stiff wire brush. (My brush is getting a bit threadbare but I've got some nice handrails!)
David.
Quote from: clayliner on March 06, 2020, 16:38
When I need stiff wire for handrails I snip off 'bristles' from a stiff wire brush. (My brush is getting a bit threadbare but I've got some nice handrails!)
Clever. Mine is very manky and probably not ideal, but I like the thinking. I really should be writing this stuff down :-)
Stephen
For thin stiff wire, find a tame guitarist (electric, country, etc. variety) if you can.
What like me you mean?
So what you are saying is if I move about a meter and open my guitar case I will have everything I need? Not counting the wound strings that make excellent brake pipes?
I really need to start writing this down :-)
Quote from: Stephen Rainsbury on March 06, 2020, 12:47
A quick rummage in the "Building Materials" box found some 0.5mm brass rod*, would that need burnishing? If so could I do that at home with basic tools?
If you have got the facility to do so it will not do any harm, but you might be OK without doing it.
Quote from: Stephen Rainsbury on March 06, 2020, 12:47
EDIT: I suppose that I could do the whole thing in soldered brass using a veroboard jig and just fit the rails as completed assemblies, but how the heck to I accurately drill the holes in 1mm brass angle? Or would I be better off just doing a butt soldered joint, using another jig to hold the rail in place?
Stephen
I'd mark the centre of the hole with an engineers scribe (either a proper job or a big sewing needle held in a pin vice - you won't need to hammer it, just press to make a small dimple) then use a 0.5mm drill bit also held in a pin vice to drill the holes by hand. It may take a while, and if your pin vice hasn't got a revolving handle on the top you may get a blister from the friction (the pin vice I have with no handle has a hole in the top and I use a big brass drawing pin to save the wear and tear on the skin). The trick is to go slowly and gently (and it may be worth using new(er) drill bits as they will be sharper and cut better).
Using a dremel or other powered drill will result in broken drill bits skidding across the brass until they bite the metal and start whirling the bit of angle around at high speed (until it flies off, but not before it's ripped a chunk out of you on the way)...
Don't ask me how I found that one out ::)
I get my handrail wire from Eileens Emporium (I use their 0.45mm diameter wire and they also sell handrail knobs in a variety of lengths. (just had a look at their website, they do a variety of wire diameters too.
Usual disclaimer
Quote from: JulienW on March 07, 2020, 19:15
I'd mark the centre of the hole with an engineers scribe (either a proper job or a big sewing needle held in a pin vice - you won't need to hammer it, just press to make a small dimple) then use a 0.5mm drill bit also held in a pin vice to drill the holes by hand. It may take a while, and if your pin vice hasn't got a revolving handle on the top you may get a blister from the friction (the pin vice I have with no handle has a hole in the top and I use a big brass drawing pin to save the wear and tear on the skin). The trick is to go slowly and gently (and it may be worth using new(er) drill bits as they will be sharper and cut better).
Thanks, I have all that available, and will give it a go. Fortunately I got a new set of drill bits and a pin vice for Christmas from my eldest son ;)
I think I am going to make a veroboard jig up to assemble the hand rails as separate assemblies, then use it to drill the holes in the model.
But first a very nervous session with a chisel tipped scalpel to remove the ridges that Ratio put there to represent the handrail, without removing the rivet detail :-\
EDIT - Before that I am going to fit the chassis and door to keep it more stable :-)(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49634590496_df3ee04835_n.jpg)
Quote from: hughn on March 07, 2020, 21:07
I get my handrail wire from Eileens Emporium (I use their 0.45mm diameter wire and they also sell handrail knobs in a variety of lengths. (just had a look at their website, they do a variety of wire diameters too.
I love that shop too its great. I can't remember the last time I bought there but I didn't know that they did the knobs too. Did you use one for the end of your Wizard's staff? We all know its got one ;)
Stephen
Quote from: Stephen Rainsbury on March 08, 2020, 13:54
Quote from: hughn on March 07, 2020, 21:07
I get my handrail wire from Eileens Emporium (I use their 0.45mm diameter wire and they also sell handrail knobs in a variety of lengths. (just had a look at their website, they do a variety of wire diameters too.
I love that shop too its great. I can't remember the last time I bought there but I didn't know that they did the knobs too. Did you use one for the end of your Wizard's staff? We all know its got one ;)
Stephen
:) No - Perhaps I should have thought of that when I broke the top of Wizard No.2's staff. I used a very small metal bead -on, yes, a piece of handrail wire. It looks a bit top-heavy, but then we all know wizards like a bit of bling!
(Wizard No.2 is some sort of plastic (from Shapeways) whereas Wizard No. 1 is white metal and a lot more robust...)
Quote from: hughn on March 12, 2020, 20:34
(Wizard No.2 is some sort of plastic (from Shapeways) whereas Wizard No. 1 is white metal and a lot more robust...)
He probably had a better breakfast
---
Stephen
---
Sorry I fell over and injured my right wrist so can't type much at the moment, or make models :(
Quote from: Stephen Rainsbury on March 08, 2020, 13:54
I love that shop too its great. I can't remember the last time I bought there but I didn't know that they did the knobs too. Did you use one for the end of your Wizard's staff? We all know its got one ;)
Do I also hear a verse of the "Hedgehog Song" in the background? ;)
Quote from: GraemeD on March 13, 2020, 09:46
Do I also hear a verse of the "Hedgehog Song" in the background? ;)
I can never be b*****ed with that one :)
The faculty...
fro those interested in the multifarious uses of handrail wire
(https://live.staticflickr.com/7868/40498062473_f4d2864aa9_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/24GFa3r)The Faculty... (https://flic.kr/p/24GFa3r) by H Norwood (https://www.flickr.com/photos/hnorwood/), on Flickr
Quote from: hughn on March 13, 2020, 20:57
The faculty...
fro those interested in the multifarious uses of handrail wire
Love it :)
Ook! ;D
I managed a little light modelling this afternoon, despite the broken arm, and managed to clear all the "handrails" from my micro-toad.
I still needs a bit of tidy up in better light but I started drilling holes for the handrails with a pin vice and that proved a bit too much so had to stop.
Unfortunately I managed to gouge a lump out of the side but I am slowly filling it with layers of cement and hopefully I will be able to get it smooth again. After that I might just put the doors and foot steps in, give it a light undercoat to see what it is going to look like.
I still need to decide which type of handrail I am going to use. They are all based on gas pipe, and I had only been considering normal handrail fittings and the later angle iron but I have since found out the originals were made with length of pipe cut to length then hammer flat at each end, a hole drilled through and then bolted to the van. Where pipes met they shared a common bolt.
I also need to decide what to do with the rivets, I have managed to rub away quite a few while I was cutting the sides, so do I try and repair them or just get rid of the lot?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49688682202_0615c31952_c.jpg)
That's coming on well.
With respect to repairing rivets one method I've used is to cut small 'cubes' from plastic (styrene) strip - the smaller the better - and stick them on with liquid solvent. The trick is not to move them with the first brush-full and then wash several more brushfulls over the cubes to round them off.
The other alternative if you wnated to remove all the kit's rivets would be to use one of the 'textured transfers' (resin printed onto the carrier film) like those made by Archers (available from DCC Supplies in the UK but I;'m sure other places sell them too). I've found they work best if they are put on over a layer of paint (like primer) then 'sealed' under another coat of top coat paint (I suspect a grey in your case) and one of the 'decal softening' solutions (like Microsol or Humbrol's own 'Decalfix') may help reduce the appearance of the carrier film.
Quote from: JulienW on March 23, 2020, 10:49
That's coming on well.
Thanks, but I overdid it yesterday and my arm really hurts now :-(
Quote from: JulienW on March 23, 2020, 10:49
With respect to repairing rivets one method I've used is to cut small 'cubes' from plastic (styrene) strip - the smaller the better - and stick them on with liquid solvent. The trick is not to move them with the first brush-full and then wash several more brushfulls over the cubes to round them off.
That's a good plan. I have some very small bits of plastic from the running gear that I won't need now, I reckon I could easily slice some of that down
Quote from: JulienW on March 23, 2020, 10:49
The other alternative if you wnated to remove all the kit's rivets would be to use one of the 'textured transfers' (resin printed onto the carrier film) like those made by Archers (available from DCC Supplies in the UK but I;'m sure other places sell them too). I've found they work best if they are put on over a layer of paint (like primer) then 'sealed' under another coat of top coat paint (I suspect a grey in your case) and one of the 'decal softening' solutions (like Microsol or Humbrol's own 'Decalfix') may help reduce the appearance of the carrier film.
I have looked at those and I think I will order some for my Jouef Decauville rebuild too.
Thanks for the comments
Stephen