From teh Wikipedia article on "Rabbit Warren" layouts
"By the 1980s rabbit warrens had lost their popularity. 00-9 had developed as a serious modelling scale and the diminutive models of the first generation were dismissed as toys; encouraged by their small H0 scale, and quality problems under their later manufacturers.[6] When a rabbit warren, or its flatland cousin the pizza layout,[ii] is made today, it is in a knowing context as a deliberately retro- and ironic effort."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_warren_layout (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_warren_layout)
Shame I quite like the idea of making one, but then I would have to be retro and ironic, where in reality I an just old and sarcastic :angel:
As a young lad at exhibitions I loved the rabbit Warren layouts. I think these and a layout called "under milkwood" first attracted me to 009. A holiday in North Wales sealed my fate.
It is true that the 'rabbit warren' layouts are not popular with many 009 modelers.
I have a very good example myself: 'Meanderbahn' made by my good friend the late Jack Carter and completed in 1981.
Although it is in as new condition, this layout gets very few exhibition invitations these days. I think it has been out only twice in the last ten years.
It is perhaps not ideal for a specialist narrow-gauge model railway exhibition, but it is always a hit at general model railway exhibitions where there are more members of the public and children.
It is also quite boring to operate.
Here is a link to a photo from Stephen Clulow's blog site of Meanderbahn when it was last out of its storage box at the Beccles exhibition in 2018:
(https://009adventure.files.wordpress.com/2018/09/meanderbahn-brian-meldon-1.jpg)
(Originating web page: https://009adventure.blog/2018/09/07/beccles-exhibition-2018/
The other comment I will make about rabbit warren layouts is that they are by far the most difficult layouts to design and build.
Meanderbahn has no 'baseboard' as such, the 1/4 plywood track bed is supported on a wooden frame, the scenic areas between the track are formed of expanded polystyrene.
To get it right you need to make sure that there is more track visible than there is hidden, that the grade is constant, the curves are not too tight, and all the clearances are the same. Jack did this with Meanderbahn, it is one circuit about 35 feet in length with three passing loop stations, one out of sight at the back. We run three trains in each direction using one controller, when each train arrives in a passing loop it stops on an isolating section. When all three have stopped we switch the points, change the controller direction and set the other three trains off in the opposite direction.
However even with three trains and more track on view than is hidden there are still times when no moving trains can be seen.
The 9 inch curves (and 9 inch Peco 009 electrofrog points) on Meanderbahn are quite restrictive on what locos and rolling stock we can use, mainly down to coupling overhangs.
Brian Meldon
There is nothing wrong with a 'rabbit warren' type layout. I think at one time they were the main thing seen at exhibtions representing 009 and became a cliche. We are no longer at that point now and if you want to build one, go for it, they are not easy to get right, but do bring lots of enjoyment.
Julian
It would be interesting to know who wrote that Wikipedia article.
I've certainly nothing against them either - judging by the comments here already maybe they will come back into favour?!
At least they have the potential to entertain rather more than some of the layouts at exhibitions these days (though I accept that 'entertainment' is only one justification for an exhibition layout).
David.
QuoteIt would be interesting to know who wrote that Wikipedia article.
It was somebody called Andy Dingley on 12 August 2015. Here is his first version: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rabbit_warren_layout&oldid=675819305
He's been a busy boy!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Andy_Dingley/My_created_pages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Andy_Dingley/My_created_pages)
Quote from: Iain Morrison on January 27, 2020, 12:39
BTW - if anyone has a copy of that original CJ Freezer plan please send it onto me.
Iain
Me too please :)
I'm another one whose early interest was probably sparked by a Rabbit Warren...I have a very vague memory of seeing one at an exhibition as a small child (probably at Bexhill in its glory days at the De La Warr Pavilion), this would have been in the late 1960s/early'70s.
They can certainly be entertaining though I recall a comment by CJF in a Model Railways (successor to MRN) 1980s planning special that some used them as an excuse for what he called "grotty modelling"...this accompanied a plan for a Rabbit Warren that he called "Koniez" (a sort of Germanicised version of Coneys). I think this and an H0/H0m plan called "Swiss Treat" were the only NG plans in the publication.
I suppose a variation on the Rabbit Warren is the kind of plan proposed in a similar space but featuring a quarry terminus at the upper end and a tiny port at the other, possibly with a hidden return loop somewhere in the equation.
With modern equipment, scenic techniques and control/automation I'm sure that a Rabbit Warren could be built that is highly entertaining, smooth running, great fun and quite a draw at exhibitions though it would be far from an easy option to build.
All good fun...and unusual enough nowadays to avoid being cliched.
Simon.
Just a thought (at the risk of over analysing the Rabbit Warren), when was Peco 009 Crazy track introduced? A Rabbit Warren layout would certainly show off the attributes of flexible track. Some canny marketing by Cyril Freezer???
Mid/late 60s I think, Graeme. Also sold his Plans books as well!
I have scanned the two plans he published in 60 Plans and Track Plans and have asked Dave from Peco on NGRM if it is OK to publish them on here. If he gives the go-ahead I will!
Permission granted as long as I quote the sources!
(https://i.imgur.com/VxFu67q.jpg?1)
Taken from the following two Peco Publications:
60 Plans for Small Railways, 3rd Edition
Track Plans 2nd Edition
Both I think are still available and well worth buying for that armchair modelling and inspiration time!
Quote from: Hobby on January 28, 2020, 09:15
Permission granted as long as I quote the sources!
Thanks for that Blair, a little bit of history falls into place :-)
The article in the November 68 RM covers plan S33 in Blair's scan in his posting earlier. If anyone wants a copy of the RM article, it is page 343 of the above issue and I can send you a .jpg scan if you send me a PM with your email address. I'll also include the other page that I scanned from the same issue which is a letter from (I believe now, the late:) Pat Henshaw in Weymouth with a photo of his 009 layout "Corfe Castle and Kimmeridge" for those interested in early 009 in the "formative years" of the 1960's!
Mick
I always quite liked S34 from the 60 Plans book. I seem to recall in the 009 News recently a couple of layouts loosely based on this plan.
A fair number of people attempted that layout but came to the conclusion it would be very difficult or almost impossible as a 4 x 2ft layout.
A couple of layouts where built by using a 5 x 2 1/2 ft baseboard which gave a slightly different look from the plan.
The biggest drawback was the first curve which had to be on an incline and hidden under scenery, not easy ?
I think Cyril Freezer gave the impression that it was a simple layout to construct ?
Stan/
Thanks for posting Blair!
Somewhere I have a Rabbit Warren trackplan traced from somewhere onto drafting film with a Rotring pen many years ago (1970s?) that I thought was the "original" but on seeing the scan and unless it turns up I won't be sure.
I also have a mental image of a photo in RM of another Rabbit Warrent layout from about that time. The thing that sticks in my mind is green (surely it was B&W photos?) painted plaster "grass" and seem to recall the texture looking a little odd, even then. Definitely no static grass, dyed lint, teddybear fur or even dyed sawdust.
Not a Rabbit Warren layout but definitely of that ilk and more recent is "Prof Klyzir's" Dynamite Canyon Tramway. It is full of gradients and twists but with return/balloon loops at either end. The cunning plan was that it used turnouts with no moving parts, not even sprung, one-way point blades.
I recon S34 would be possible, the gradient only starts after it passes under the bridge under the high level so it will be steep but not impossible. To be fair to CJF he always said that an extra 6 inches on length and width of the boards would make things a lot easier. My original figure of eight was based around one of his plans, length wise it was shorter than S34 but 6" wider.
From what i remember there were several warrens and simplified warrens featured in the model railway press around that time... Apart from Giles's OOn3 layout another which I liked came in March 1970 MRC and was an HOe (HO9 back then) small addition to a large French SG layout. 5ft by 3.5ft, two circuits and a winding connecting line... Used Liliput and Egger stock.
*
A handed version of S34 built by Tim Tinknell was exhibited the Pewsey Members' Day on 19 August 2013. Shots of the layout are to be found on Mick Thornton's excellent photo report of the day. See Nos 061-066 here -
https://get.google.com/albumarchive/112461785190797901174/album/AF1QipOxu1vbIdk-dI7ymLQ4ZdhMJqdBWvpGgWIyNrPC/AF1QipN-dgbMGmZnHFA5uDUOIpnHVj7tAAKdZwNf5kF6
CP
Thank you for your compliment Christopher!
After clicking the link that Christopher has kindly given to take you to the first of the photos of Tim's layout, click the "i" button top right and this will open up the caption for the photo. Unfortunately when Google Images took over from Picasaweb as the hosting site for my blog, all the older reports which were migrated across have to have the captions for each image opened individually for some strange Google reason that nobody can find any logic for.
More recent reports that were created directly into Google Images after they had done their best to ruin my contentment with things and made life difficult, fortunately do not have this constraint and upon opening the text captions on any image, this facility stays open throughout the visit to that report.
Unfortunately I have not been able to keep the roving reporter blog updated since mid 2017 for a variety of reasons. I am still hoping that I may be able to catch up on lost ground at least sometime in the not too far distant future.
Mick
*
Mick
I get the caption at the bottom without needing to hit the "i" button.
CP
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All of the caption - I am using a large screen on my desk.
CP
It may depend on browser settings. I can see all or part of the captions depending on my choice of text size or "zoom" setting (by pressing the Ctrl key and either + or -). I lose just a letter or two of photo 061 at 100% and see it all 90%.
More rabbits including additional references to Cyril Freezer plans -
<deleted>
Oops sorry wrong link. I don't know how that got in. I'll try to find the right one!
This is what I meant to post:
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/136810-cyril-freezers-009-rabbit-warren-plan/ (https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/136810-cyril-freezers-009-rabbit-warren-plan/)
It contains a link to a scan of the layout.
*
I happened to look at my copy "60 Plans for Small Railways" (3rd ed, March 1971) the other day and noted as follows reference the S34 plan.
(i) As drawn and annotated by CJF it is for a 4ft x 2ft area.
(ii) It is stated as being of minimum radius 9ins.
(iii) However, using the scale along the bottom of the drawing that seems only to apply to the 180° curve at the right hand side of the plan.
(iv) The curve at the left hand rear (the reverse loop) looks more like 6ins radius – I would guess CJF actually had in mind the EggerBahn 140mm radius.
(v) The other 180° curve (front left) looks like combination of 9ins and 140mm radius.
I do not know what radius Tim Tincknel used for his mirror image version. I suspect it was greater than 140mm.
CP
Quote from: cp.409067 on February 04, 2020, 13:53
I do not know what radius Tim Tincknel used for his mirror image version. I suspect it was greater than 140mm.
I don't think I have any way of testing to see if any of my stock would run round 6" radius, but I would be very interested to know now :-)
Stephen
Quote from: Stephen Rainsbury on February 05, 2020, 00:25
Quote from: cp.409067 on February 04, 2020, 13:53
I do not know what radius Tim Tincknel used for his mirror image version. I suspect it was greater than 140mm.
I don't think I have any way of testing to see if any of my stock would run round 6" radius, but I would be very interested to know now :-)
Stephen
In mnost cases it will not be the wheel base that is the problem on the tighter curves, it will be the couplings that will be the limiting factor.
In general the tighter the curve the more work you need to do modifying the couplings to prevent them form locking up because of the overhang.
Brian Meldon
Quote from: GraemeD on February 02, 2020, 11:22
More rabbits including additional references to Cyril Freezer plans -
<deleted>
Oops sorry wrong link. I don't know how that got in. I'll try to find the right one!
This is what I meant to post:
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/136810-cyril-freezers-009-rabbit-warren-plan/ (https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/136810-cyril-freezers-009-rabbit-warren-plan/)
It contains a link to a scan of the layout.
That is clearly S34, not a Rabbit Warren. Looking at S34 I would agree with Christopher that at least some of the curve on the left on the lower level is less than 9" but I also suspect it was done to keep as much of the track in view. If you put in a proper 9" curve you'd need to modify the connection between the two curves, it would still work ok but the gradient would be steeper...
My original understanding is that a "warren" layout was a single circuit which kept bending sharply back on itself, going in and out of tunnels and up and down, at least that's what both of CJF's plans show and what he seem to infer. However I've seen several layouts recently which purport to be warrens but are just several separate ovals on different levels... Certainly an easier option than a true warren!!
My father built the Cyril Freezer layout and it was exhibited one year at the Leeds Exhibition in the early 80's in the Corn Exchange, it was sold I believe a year or so latter. I was going to post the plans but it's got all his pencil scaling notes all over it.