I seem to have successfully rebuilt the much damage Decauville loco that I bought a few months ago and the naked chassis happily whizzes, sorry wheezes, round my test track for ages without a cough. I have a decent replacement body (and one for the loco) but it is minus its cab roof so now I now have two choices in how I restore the body:
- Toy, Red Chassis, roof at "toy" height, thicker roof supports, original driver
- More prototypical, black chassis with red buffer beams, slightly higher roof, thinner (brass angle) roof supports, new driver, tall enough to have to stoop slightly, this emphasizing the scale better
OK I actually have two but one of them does not run as well and needs either more TLC or a new 5 pole motor, and is going to be painted red and a companion for the first one.
Grief I am not looking forward to doing the lining!
The main issue with fitting a lower roof is that it will just look like a Decauville with a roof that is out of proportion to the rest of the loco!
The form and outline of these locos is just too well known by anyone who has been involved with 009 in the past 50 years. It is even on the 009 Society logo.
But do have a go if you like.
Brian Meldon
Quote from: B.Meldon on January 18, 2020, 16:37
The main issue with fitting a lower roof is that it will just look like a Decauville with a roof that is out of proportion to the rest of the loco!
I am actually looking at raising the roof :-)
I have acquired several drawings and I can see from one of your earlier comments that the Jouef is not based on any one prototype Decauville loco, but probably closest to the 3 tonne one, so I am proposing this. I appreciate that this now gives problems with the furniture on top of the boiler, and the fact hat you can't see under it, but at least an 00 gauge figure would fit in the cab (just) and hopefully give a different perspective, making the loco appear to me smaller.
The cab uprights would be 1.5mm brass angle (which I already have) and a roof bent from tin or maybe plastic.
Or the easiest route which is just to put it back as it was originally cast. :)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49404755802_b694938f52.jpg)
I remember looking longingly at the photos in Railway Modeller in about 1968, but even then I was puzzled by the apparent height of the cab roof (or the shortness of the driver). I take it is to maintain some proportion in the model and that it is nothing like 3.5 mm/ft. What is it? Closer to 5 mm/ft??
I see raising the roof improves proportion, but wouldn't the chimney need extending to clear it too?
To my knowledge the Jouf Decauville is close to S-scale (1:64).
If you raise the roof you need to at least raise the chimney too, you don't want to have '...smoke get's in your eyes...'! :laugh:
Just an observation
Waldschrat
Yes it would need a taller chimney, and the dome is a bit small.
I don't have access to a lathe anymore and to be honest I am not sure if I would try to make a new one because it is a longer length of brass with Chimney at one and and a screw thread on the other which keeps the whole thing together.
My son thinks he could 3D print a sleeve that would fit over the original chimney making it slightly wider and taller. I would paint this black,which is prototypical for Decauville stock.
Having said all this it is a nice chassis and will pull a reasonable load, but it is a bit jittery at low speeds and makes one heck of a noise so I don't want to spend ages on something that isn't used much.
Quote from: Leprechaun on January 18, 2020, 21:04
To my knowledge the Jouf Decauville is close to S-scale (1:64).
I read that too, but that makes the driver a real midget. Brian suggests that the size was determined as eh smallest they could make it for the motors available at the time, which makes sense. I can see aspects of the Decauville 3 Tonne and 7 Tonne locos so I look on it as a bit of a freelance, and am not going to lose too much sleep if it doesn't quite look like any specific photo.
I just wanted one as I always liked them, so even if it is just run as a toy I ill be happy, much in the same way that several people seem to be happy for Thomas the Tank engine to run on their layouts :)
Stephen
I'd be pretty sure there were smaller motors around at the time so I suspect that cost had more to do with it than size, that one being the cheapest smallest motor they could find... Same as the eternal argument about the origins of OO scale which may well have been down to the size of loco running plates/splashers and steam roller wheel treads for British prototypes rather than small electric motors...
I think somewhere I'd read (probably Brian!) that it was 4.7/4.8mm/ft, whatever that is in a ratio...
Quote from: Hobby on January 19, 2020, 08:50
I think somewhere I'd read (probably Brian!) that it was 4.7/4.8mm/ft, whatever that is in a ratio...
The out of the box version doesn't seem to have been based on any one prototype but seems to be to be closest to the 3 Tonne version, which is the one in the society Logo. However the model is 50mm long from buffer beam to buffer beam, but the original was 2.72m (8'11"). That's a ratio of 54:1 not the 76:1 that we would want to see, even further from the 87:1 that you would need for H0e.
It does however have some characteristics of the 7 Tonne one was 3.8m long which is an exact ration of 1:76 so bingo! However to me the model is not a good representation, if nothing else, the prototype has 6 wheels!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49408621147_8d0ff42e79_z.jpg)
I think I am going to have to regard it as a freelance model "inspired by" the original Decauvuille, there is no point trying to get too close, the tanks are too lumpy for either of them, the body is too low and the model gear over simplified.
This brings me back to the original question, do I leave the chassis red like the toy of paint it black with red buffer beams like the prototype ???
The driver is an H0 passenger from Jouef's set of passengers and compares well with the Preiser range as well accurate 1:87, i.e. shows that the engine is not even 00, but S-scale. He still carries his brief case!
The motor is the one Jouef used in their slotcar range, which was already in production, i.e. Jouef was not focussed on producing a scale model, but on utilising as much of their existing production line as feasible, and the Decauville was designed to fit the motor.
Think laterally, you can extend the chimney with a brass bead/ collar/ tube at the base, creating an ornamental feature, or you can use a piece of tubing to model a 'stove-pipe' chimney as common on contractor's engines. Of course, their are chimneys coming around as some engines were supplied with extras, e.g. the Liliput class U.
Cheers
Waldschrat
Currently 2 sets in the bay of 2nd hand with 3 days to go:
GEM model railways OO-9 narrow gauge & industrial loco fittings
Order No. 9104
Contains 3 different chimneys.
Cheers
Waldschrat
Quote from: Leprechaun on January 19, 2020, 20:00
Currently 2 sets in the bay of 2nd hand with 3 days to go:
GEM model railways OO-9 narrow gauge & industrial loco fittings
Thanks I have put a watch on :)
Quote from: Leprechaun on January 19, 2020, 15:41
The driver is an H0 passenger from Jouef's set of passengers and compares well with the Preiser range as well accurate 1:87, i.e. shows that the engine is not even 00, but S-scale. He still carries his brief case!
The motor is the one Jouef used in their slotcar range, which was already in production, i.e. Jouef was not focussed on producing a scale model, but on utilising as much of their existing production line as feasible, and the Decauville was designed to fit the motor.
My ones are 22mm tall which in H0 is just over 6', but he looks like a midget.
I suppose then that he factory only tooled up for the loco specific items and bought it as much as it could pre-assembled.
The Jouef loco was designed around the size of the smallest motor Jouef could source in France at the time. There were smaller motors available in Germany, but Jouef did not want to go outside France for their suppliers.
The proportions were just scaled up from the size of this motor.
It should be noted that there were three sizes of the Decauville Type 1 steam loco. The drawings that are available, including the one in the post above are all for the smallest 3-ton type and several of those actual 3-ton locos survive today.
However the Jouef model was quite obviously based on the proportions larger 8 ton version, these have the same basic outline but the cab is proportionally lower compared to the size of the tanks, sadly none survive and I have never seen a drawing, but there are some photos. These larger versions do have the same tank size to cab height ratio as reproduced in the Jouef model.
So basically, the proportions in the 3-ton loco drawing is not correct for this 8-ton loco. I recommend that you try to stick to the 8-ton loco proportions and do not make the cab any higher.
It also should be noted that all the type 1 Decauville locos were outside frame locos. There was a kit produced a few years ago to convert the Jouef chassis to outside frame, but I would only recommend using this on one of the 1980's chassis that run far better than the 1960's and early 70's chassis.
Quote from: B.Meldon on January 20, 2020, 08:35
It should be noted that there were three sizes of the Decauville Type 1 steam loco. The drawings that are available, including the one in the post above are all for the smallest 3-ton type and several of those actual 3-ton locos survive today.
Thanks, Brian. I wasn't aware of an 8 Tonne version and will have a quick google after this.
Looking at it now I would probably be better off just restoring one model back to as close as I can to packet fresh, keeping this one in mind
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4637/25526457938_ea31215e33_z.jpg)
And assuming the other one runs as well go for this paint job. And just ignore the running gear :)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/3371/3445604406_2cdfbe76e2_z.jpg)
Mind you I still can't decide if I want to paint the chassis black :)
Stephen
The outside frame kit is from Nonneminstre and still available:
DECAUVILLE 0-4-0 OUTSIDE FRAME UPGRADE KIT
An outside frame upgrade kit for the classic Jouef and Eggerbahn Decauville model. Etched brass with whitemetal details. £22.50
http://www.nonneminstre.co.uk/4mm-narrow-gauge.php (http://www.nonneminstre.co.uk/4mm-narrow-gauge.php)
It doesn't come with the Nebukadnezar-size bottle of valerian extra strong needed to put it together. It's not in the shake-the-box class of kits either.
Cheers
Waldschrat
Quote from: Leprechaun on January 21, 2020, 00:16
It doesn't come with the Nebukadnezar-size bottle of valerian extra strong needed to put it together. It's not in the shake-the-box class of kits either.
That looks nice, but one heck of a challenge and will need the extra large bench magnifier. Imagine dropping a small bit from that :)
I like the idea, but want to see if the motor refurb is going to give good results over the next few months before spending any more it, but it would solve the problem of what colour to paint the chassis ;)
Quote from: Leprechaun on January 19, 2020, 20:00
Currently 2 sets in the bay of 2nd hand with 3 days to go:
GEM model railways OO-9 narrow gauge & industrial loco fittings
Order No. 9104
I just noticed that Dundas do them for £5 and I am about to put and order in, so better not bid more that £2 as its £3 P&P :)
Quote from: Leprechaun on January 21, 2020, 00:16
The outside frame kit is from Nonneminstre and still available:
DECAUVILLE 0-4-0 OUTSIDE FRAME UPGRADE KIT
An outside frame upgrade kit for the classic Jouef and Eggerbahn Decauville model. Etched brass with whitemetal details. £22.50
http://www.nonneminstre.co.uk/4mm-narrow-gauge.php (http://www.nonneminstre.co.uk/4mm-narrow-gauge.php)
It doesn't come with the Nebukadnezar-size bottle of valerian extra strong needed to put it together. It's not in the shake-the-box class of kits either.
Cheers
Waldschrat
Thanks, I should have known about its continued availaibility. Yes it is not an easy kit, but it is better than some others.
However my previous comments stand:
I would strongly recomend using the 1980's version of the chassis not the 1960's/70's version.
The 1980's version has a five pole skew wound can motor, better pickups and it runs a lot better than the older version.
It is just my opinion but I do not think it is worth spending time or money on the older versions, other than for a collection.
Brian Meldon
... or kitbashing. :laugh:
like fitting a chassis with the correct wheelbase and wheel diameter. :laugh:
Cheers
Waldschrat
Quote from: Leprechaun on January 21, 2020, 09:16
like fitting a chassis with the correct wheelbase and wheel diameter. :laugh:
An extremely rare bird in 009 modelling circles... ;)
Quote from: B.Meldon on January 21, 2020, 08:27
I would strongly recomend using the 1980's version of the chassis not the 1960's/70's version.
The 1980's version has a five pole skew wound can motor, better pickups and it runs a lot better than the older version.
It is just my opinion but I do not think it is worth spending time or money on the older versions, other than for a collection.
That's the one with red wheels isn't it? I don't think I have ever seen one on eBay. I have been talking to Sven at Transfabriek about a 3D block for mounting his motors which would be around £30 all in.
I have overspent on Railways a bit for the last few months so anything that costs more than a few quid is going to have to take a back burner for a bit, having said that I won a bundle on eBay tonight that included another Loco, with a roof! The whole bundle was £30 including the Loco, three matching tipper trucks, some Lima wagons and a bag of other bits, so assuming its all good I am happy with that.
That's three Locos now, 5 bodies and one roof!! I only noticed in your article today that the roof was a separate moulding which might explain why the rest didn't have one ;)
Is it not time for Bachmann, heljan or minitrains to take up the challenge and produce a new correct 4mm scale version, with outside frames. I'm sure they would sell well. Even if most of the purchases were for pure nostalgia! 🤔
Quote from: paul ludlow on January 21, 2020, 21:56
Is it not time for Bachmann, heljan or minitrains to take up the challenge and produce a new correct 4mm scale version
It could be quite a range withe several locos and quite a bit of stock, but would probably sell best in Europe so might well be H0e.
In reality the 3-ton Decauville locos are tiny. The Bush H0f model is about the right size body for H0 scale, however it is not 100% correct and wheelbase is too long so they could use a variation of their standard H0f chassis, obviously it is also 7.5mm gauge not 9mm gauge. (Decauville did make some 500mm gauge versions.) It is a very small model indeed and would probably look out of place next to most other H0e and 009 locos and stock:
(https://www.modellbahnshop-lippe.com/article_data/images/44/279207_c.jpg)
(Originating web page: https://www.modellbahnshop-lippe.com/Field+railway/Field+railway+locomotives/Busch%2D12141/gb/modell_279207.html )
Here is a link to a poor photo of one of the larger versions, I am not sure if this is a 5-ton or a 7-ton and I do not have a drawing, but it is obviously larger than the 3-ton version. Sadly, none survive of the larger versions, or at least none that I know about.
(https://c7.alamy.com/comp/W4XP5X/couillet-decauville-type-1-nouveau-modle-W4XP5X.jpg)
(Originating web page: https://www.alamy.com/couillet-decauville-type-1-nouveau-modle-image261202310.html )
My guess would be that Jouef based their model on a better version of this exact photo. (But I could be wrong?)
Brian Meldon
Quote from: B.Meldon on January 22, 2020, 08:38
In reality the 3-ton Decauville locos are tiny. The Bush H0f model is about the right size body for H0 scale, however it is not 100% correct and wheelbase is too long so they could use a variation of their standard H0f chassis, obviously it is also 7.5mm gauge not 9mm gauge. (Decauville did make some 500mm gauge versions.) It is a very small model indeed and would probably look out of place next to most other H0e and 009 locos and stock:
I have been looking at source material and quite like the photo below as it shows exactly how small the were, especially when compared to the Tin Turtle behind it, although I agree it could look odd compared to other stock.
(https://forum.009society.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geoffspages.co.uk%2Fraildiary%2Ftttt3_htm_files%2F3789.jpg&hash=b32ae5ee0a73a2d7b3033d64afeb23abb82a7f62)
I have several 3.5/4mm scale figures that I might try as drivers just to see what they look like, but will have to be careful as passengers in their coaches (if I use them) will have to be 3.5mm or they won't fit. The one that comes with it although to scale can look a but like the work experience student compared to other 009 stock.
I'd buy one. Good looking little gem, would go well with my 20hp simplex & de Winton 4 wheel vbt! 😄
Complaints about the "Coffee-Grinder" of the Jouef model are I think arise from the gears from motor to layshaft. On two chassis I have replace these with pulleys and a belt from Nigel Lawton. This is much quieter than the gear system. The added advantage is much lower gearing, the models drive at ~7--> 8 volts for a scale speed and will really crawl along at a lower voltage, with a flywheel-like effect.
If I remember correctly, I used a 1.7mm root pulley on the motor driving to a 9mm pulley on the layshaft, using a 10mm belt. No chassis modifications were necessary, there is just enough room for a 9mm pulley instead of the layshaft gear, with the belt down in the groove. One could also use an 8mm pulley, but check Nigel's sizing chart for correct belt tension.
Bernard
One note of caution with the belt drives - I have a few locos that use these but that do not see much use, and in my experience if the locos are left unused for any appreciable length of time the belts can take on a (semi?) permanent 'set' to the teardrop shape of being stretched around the pulleys, so I've taken to slipping the belt off before putting the locos away to prolong their life.
Quote from: BernardH44 on February 09, 2020, 22:47
Complaints about the "Coffee-Grinder" of the Jouef model are I think arise from the gears from motor to layshaft. On two chassis I have replace these with pulleys and a belt from Nigel Lawton. This is much quieter than the gear system.
Thats is very useful to know, I will investigate.
Quote from: JulienW on February 10, 2020, 10:12
I've taken to slipping the belt off before putting the locos away to prolong their life.
That is also very interesting to know.
Thanks Gents, I have three of these now all in various states of repair, but that is an avenue I hadn't considered. I might even trying fitting a coreless motor instead.
Stephen
Quote from: Stephen Rainsbury on February 10, 2020, 21:53
That is also very interesting to know.
Thanks Gents, I have three of these now all in various states of repair, but that is an avenue I hadn't considered. I might even trying fitting a coreless motor instead.
Stephen
Back in the 1980's I fitted several of these chassis with replacement ECM1 motors using the original gears. They did run better and there was also room for additional weight, but they were not much quieter than with the original motor.
The 1980's version with the five pole, skew wound Mabuchi can motor also run better, they are a little quieter than the old locos as well, but not by that much.
So I would tend to agree that it is the gears that make the noise combined with the body that acts as a sound box.
That said modern motors may well be a lot quieter than the old ECM1 and 1980's Mabuchi motors were.
(The ECM1 motors were also used by Graham Fairish in the earliest version of their N gauge 0-6-0 chassis.)
Quote from: BernardH44 on February 09, 2020, 22:47
If I remember correctly, I used a 1.7mm root pulley on the motor driving to a 9mm pulley on the layshaft, using a 10mm belt. No chassis modifications were necessary, there is just enough room for a 9mm pulley instead of the layshaft gear, with the belt down in the groove. One could also use an 8mm pulley, but check Nigel's sizing chart for correct belt tension.
OK I am hooked an want to try this, how did you get the old gears off, just pull them?
Stephen
You are on the slippery slope ... ;) ;D
Something like this. It is not quite the same as my one. Others I'm sure will be able to recommend a good version.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Expo-Worm-Pinion-Gear-Pullers-Suitable-for-The-Railway-Modeller-00-HO-N/264530901480?epid=8003966816&hash=item3d974539e8:m:mRSpDQliv7aN3cuP0FmuiZA (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Expo-Worm-Pinion-Gear-Pullers-Suitable-for-The-Railway-Modeller-00-HO-N/264530901480?epid=8003966816&hash=item3d974539e8:m:mRSpDQliv7aN3cuP0FmuiZA)
Quote from: GraemeD on February 12, 2020, 08:41
You are on the slippery slope ... ;) ;D
In for a penny as they say.
I have only been back into this for 6 months but already having to find homes* for a pack of Phosphor bronze pickup strip, a box of magnets, now lead strip and gears makes me realize that this is much deep rabbit hole that would appear on the surface :-)
* Lets not mention the 6 show box sized "Really useful" boxes that are now sat on the floor looking for a home and a shelf that used to hold two small synthesizers** now handed over to paints
** No synthesizers were harmed in the making of this hobby - they have been built into flight cases ready for my world comeback tour :-)
The belt drive.
Yes, I just gently pulled off the gear from the motor spindle. The one I removed from the motor shaft was metal If I remember correctly. The layshaft gear also just pulled off.
One loco came with no gear on the motor spindle, so that was not a problem. You need to check the diameter of the motor shaft compared to the hole in the pulley. Nigel Lawton also sells motors, and you could take the opportunity to re-motor if you think the existing motor is too old. The 9mm pulley means that the motor is spinning quite quickly, so an 8mm pulley might be good.
Nigel has a sizing chart on the website to determine which belt and pulley combination to use.
Good luck,
BernardH
Quote from: BernardH44 on April 04, 2020, 21:31
The 9mm pulley means that the motor is spinning quite quickly, so an 8mm pulley might be good.
Nigel has a sizing chart on the website to determine which belt and pulley combination to use.
Thanks, that is certainly on my "Todo" list. I have two coffee grinder chassis work OK which I will probably convert, and a third which has ended up with all the crappy bits and hardly crawls. I might convert that too at some point but I need to make decent pickups first.
I don't have any form plans for the bodies, I only have one complete one with a roof, two reasonable ones with no roof and two that have partially melted. First job is to get the running an see if I can fit a DCC decoder :-)
Just a quick note on drive belts, in that they get 'set' in shape if they are not used regularly.
If you are not going to use a loco at lest once a week it is best to slip the belt off the pully so it does not get set in one shape.
Brian Meldon
Quote from: B.Meldon on April 06, 2020, 11:09
Just a quick note on drive belts, in that they get 'set' in shape if they are not used regularly.
Its a good point, you used to get the same problem with portable cassette players.