In my previous N gauge layout, I used the preformed Woodlands Scenics foam underlay.
Having never built a 009 layout, I was wondering what thickness and width of (cork?) underlay is usual?
Cheers Lee
Up to the builder, many of us don't bother with underlay at all! I have only used some on my new layout because I needed a little depth so I could run the point rodding out of sight otherwise I wouldn't bother. The only other reason I can think of is to give the ballast some "shoulder" but as that doesn't apply to many narrow gauge lines its academic... I sometimes wonder if the "requirement" for underlay is a myth put about by the makers of cork sheets!
I tend to agree.
The noise levels are so low in 009 especialy with the newer locos iit is just not worth the bother.
Also in my opinion underlay of any type can be a complete pain making the track 'float' and increase the chances of dips and steps in the rail.
In my opinion it is far better to fix the track down onto a
I've always used either cork or the dark grey/black thin and quite firm foam used as cork replacement, but I intend to try what Brian does next time round. I think Iain Rice describes something similar and calls it "floating track base" where foam or something similar is placed between the track bed and underlying baseboard. I did try thicker camping mat foam but that was no better.
Having made one "portable" layout using MDF my preferred material is 6 mm ply - but it drums loudly. The underlay seems to have little effect. I'm hoping that having the track glued firmly to a narrower base will impropve matters.
Regarding the noise, it does help until you ballast it, then you make it all solid again and negate any benefit from the underlay. As we tend to use a sound box as a baseboard and put our layout on top of it I'd suggest that sound deadening material inside the baseboard would be more effective. TBH the noise it makes when running I rather prefer to complete silence!
Thanks for your replies. As the layout I'm building is a test bed for a future larger layout, I'll give the cork a miss and see how it goes. I hadn't thought about the fact that NG tend to have shallower ballast compared to SG. As this is my first NG layout, it's sometimes difficult to switch over from SG thinking.
If anyone is interested, here's a link to a thread about my layout on NGRM: Lubstree Wharf (http://ngrm-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/24315-lubstree-wharf-009/)
Lee
Coming back to Iain Rice's methods - essentially decoupling vibrating loco mechanisms from the sound box of the layout baseboard - one of the key things was to also use a flexible glue to avoid undoing all the work of cutting and sticking the foam in place by then making it (effectively) solid with the addition of the 'traditional' PVA+water mix.
If it is sound deadening that is needed I wonder if parking the hollow baseboard with something - foam sheet, expanded polystyrene, horsehair-based car insulation? - would also do the same job as Hobby suggests.
As others have said having 2 or 3 mm of cork underlay between the bottom of the track and the hard baseboard top can be a useful space for running wier-in-tube point actuation (easier to cut a trench in the cork), and it may also even out any inconsistencies in a flat-topped baseboard (or plywood sub base if using an open-frame baseboard). It's also quite useful for making the ballast shoulder, but that may be less of an issue with those down-at-heel NG lines we tend to model (though may be more important if your line is a modern preserved one).
Julien is correct, you can get an uneven trackbed when using plywood, but this is usually only at the joints and with careful pre planning it is possible to only have joints in the plywood trackbed in areas where the track is flat and level, thus virtually removing any problem.
In addition, a 1/4 ply trackbed is very good for the transitions between flat and graded track. It just naturally bends to give the transitions.
There is however sometimes a need to pack between the plywood and the track, we have just used sections of card at various thicknesses for this.
We also always fix the track down with track pins, but sadly Peco no longer make the shorter track pins that do not stick out through 6mm ply, they only sell the longer pins now that will go all the way through, creating sharp points on the underside of the boards.
One other tip that I have always found most useful is to pre-bend the rails into the rough shapes needed of any curves rather than just bending the flexi track and fixing it down under tension.
Brian Meldon
Quote from: JulienW on September 17, 2019, 09:39As others have said having 2 or 3 mm of cork underlay between the bottom of the track and the hard baseboard top can be a useful space for running wire-in-tube point actuation (easier to cut a trench in the cork),
This is my latest layout (Kingdom of Ostrovia on NGRM, Lee!) showing how I've used the cork underlay.
(https://i.imgur.com/anV2sNK.jpg)
Quote from: JulienW on September 17, 2019, 09:39
Coming back to Iain Rice's methods - essentially decoupling vibrating loco mechanisms from the sound box of the layout baseboard - one of the key things was to also use a flexible glue to avoid undoing all the work of cutting and sticking the foam in place by then making it (effectively) solid with the addition of the 'traditional' PVA+water mix.
If it is sound deadening that is needed I wonder if parking the hollow baseboard with something - foam sheet, expanded polystyrene, horsehair-based car insulation? - would also do the same job as Hobby suggests.
I think one of Iain Rice's suggestions was to use builder's expanding spray foam in cavities under the baseboard. I'm not so sure about that one. It seems to get everywhere when I spray it, but people used it for terrain on top of the baseboard.
I feel that horsehair-like material may have merit. I've seen sheets of similar looking material for laminate flooring underlay. If laying a ply or similar floating track base over the stuff it would seem to be a vaguely similar situation to laying laminate. I presume the underlay evens out irregularities and dampens noise satisfactorily.
Having had the luxury of being able to experiment in place, I've tried out several options. Baseboard is 12mm ply (there's no requirement for portability, so weight isn't an issue, and it's nicely self-supporting over reasonable gaps) and I've laid different sections of track on this by:
- directly pinning
- pinning through cork
- gluing cork to base then sticking track with matt medium (effectively flexible adhesive)
- sitting loose on cork (between fixed sections)
- sitting loose directly on the base
and to be honest I'm regretting all attempts to fix the track, apart from the necessity for points operation. By far the quietest, and apparently most reliable, is the loose track on cork.
Quote from: S Arrowsmith on September 18, 2019, 09:42
Having had the luxury of being able to experiment in place, I've tried out several options. Baseboard is 12mm ply (there's no requirement for portability, so weight isn't an issue, and it's nicely self-supporting over reasonable gaps) and I've laid different sections of track on this by:
- directly pinning
- pinning through cork
- gluing cork to base then sticking track with matt medium (effectively flexible adhesive)
- sitting loose on cork (between fixed sections)
- sitting loose directly on the base
and to be honest I'm regretting all attempts to fix the track, apart from the necessity for points operation. By far the quietest, and apparently most reliable, is the loose track on cork.
Have you applied the ballast yet? This will make a big differance to the noise levels, and without it the track does not look right.
Did you pre-bend the rails for the curves?
Did you pre-drill the plastic sleepers for the track pins? If you do not the pins can distort the sleepers.
Having a complete flat baseboard is not just a weight issue it will give you far more noise than having a 1/4 (6mm) ply trackbed under the track only suported on a frame work. (But it needs more work and pre-planning of the track plan etc.)
Brian Meldon
Quote from: B.Meldon on September 18, 2019, 10:41
Have you applied the ballast yet? This will make a big differance to the noise levels, and without it the track does not look right.
Not yet -- I'm having some wiring issues (and distractions from non-modelling hobbies).
Quote from: B.Meldon on September 18, 2019, 10:41
Did you pre-bend the rails for the curves?
Did you pre-drill the plastic sleepers for the track pins? If you do not the pins can distort the sleepers.
Dodged it by using set track for all the curves :)
Quote from: B.Meldon on September 18, 2019, 10:41
Having a complete flat baseboard is not just a weight issue it will give you far more noise than having a 1/4 (6mm) ply trackbed under the track only suported on a frame work.
This fact is completely unintuitive to me -- I had expected a stiff, heavy board to be far more resistant to picking up vibrations from a small train.
Quote from: S Arrowsmith on September 18, 2019, 14:39
Quote from: B.Meldon on September 18, 2019, 10:41
Have you applied the ballast yet? This will make a big differance to the noise levels, and without it the track does not look right.
Not yet -- I'm having some wiring issues (and distractions from non-modelling hobbies).
Is this an electrofrog point issue?
If so if you like, just post the track diagram on here and we can help you.
Brian Meldon
Quote from: S Arrowsmith on September 18, 2019, 14:39
Quote from: B.Meldon on September 18, 2019, 10:41
Having a complete flat baseboard is not just a weight issue it will give you far more noise than having a 1/4 (6mm) ply trackbed under the track only suported on a frame work.
This fact is completely unintuitive to me -- I had expected a stiff, heavy board to be far more resistant to picking up vibrations from a small train.
I agree it does appear to be unintuitive. But it is true.
I think what happens is that a larger bit of wood acts like a sounding board amplifying the vibrations by resonating over a large area, where as with a smaller section of wood, especialy when cut to the curves of the track and suported on a frame, the vibrations ony resonate over a small area?
But I am not an expert on the properties of sound vibrations in wood, so perhaps others can better explain why this works the way it does.
Brian Meldon
Brian Lambert explains it all very well and in an easy to understand way:
https://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/
Quote from: B.Meldon on September 18, 2019, 10:41
Is this an electrofrog point issue?
If so if you like, just post the track diagram on here and we can help you.
Thank you, but no, it's a mess of automated module IR sensors and a point motor which is either too stiff for the module's built-in CDU, or so sensitive that it's bouncing.
Quote from: S Arrowsmith on September 19, 2019, 10:02
Quote from: B.Meldon on September 18, 2019, 10:41
Is this an electrofrog point issue?
If so if you like, just post the track diagram on here and we can help you.
Thank you, but no, it's a mess of automated module IR sensors and a point motor which is either too stiff for the module's built-in CDU, or so sensitive that it's bouncing.
As someone once said, the more complcated the plumbing the easier it is to bung up the works!
Brian Meldon
I have seen several YouTube videos where builders have laid track on polystyrene slabs, I like the idea but there was one area where they didn't agree, One chap just painted the polystyrene, glued his track to it, then ballasted it, another one put down cork, somebody even used corrugated cardboard while others put down strips of wood, either hardboard, ply or balsa.
All of the videos were for 00 and I am not sure how well they will transfer to 009, so does anybody have experience of these methods that they could share please?
The question people should ask is "do you need to raise the level of the track?". If yes then use if, if no then don't. There is no other reason for using underlay. For most 009 layouts there is really no reason to use the stuff, as most track is at ground level anyhow in real life and doesn't have a thick layer of ballast. If you use point rodding it can be set into a groove in the baseboard easily enough. But go ahead and use it if you want, it's cheap enough off eBay.
Quote from: Hobby on December 17, 2019, 08:49
The question people should ask is "do you need to raise the level of the track?". If yes then use if, if no then don't. There is no other reason for using underlay...
Thanks, I put that badly, I was thinking more about laying track on polystyrene. Would some kind of substrate help keep the track flatter and give something for pins to grip?
I was going to experiment with using hanging basket liner almost right up to the track to make the area look overgrown so I have a few mm to play with there.
Quote from: Stephen Rainsbury on December 16, 2019, 13:14
I have seen several YouTube videos where builders have laid track on polystyrene slabs, I like the idea but there was one area where they didn't agree, One chap just painted the polystyrene, glued his track to it, then ballasted it, another one put down cork, somebody even used corrugated cardboard while others put down strips of wood, either hardboard, ply or balsa.
All of the videos were for 00 and I am not sure how well they will transfer to 009, so does anybody have experience of these methods that they could share please?
Personally there are a number of reasons that any modeller may want to use some form of underlay below their track:
Aesthetic - creates a ballast shoulder (as Hobby suggests)
Gives a space below the track - as Hobby and others have suggested if you are using 'wire-in-tube' for point operation then an underlay is probably easier to cut than the top of the baseboard to make a route for the system.
Smoothing - underlay creates a smooth surface to lay the track on.
Sound deadening - The right underlay can acoustically decouple the trains from the 'sounding board' base board.
To come back specifically to polystyrene slabs - I assume that this is the blue or pink polystyrene foam rather than the white expanded polystyrene (though some of my comments can apply to the latter) - it is a material that doesn't 'hold' fixings - track pins for example - very well, and there is probably a need to fix something to the polystyrene with an adhesive, like wood or card, to give a firm flat smooth surface on which to lay the track. The foam is also not too resilient (it is easily damaged) so afaik the usual practice is to reinforce the edges of the foam board with another material - think ply or card - and I can imagine that the same thinking would lead someone to do the same with the track bed (and any road surfaces in the landscape) - essentially making the baseboard a very lightweight frame of sides, ends and track bed held together with the foam board (carved to give the landscape). From meory I think that is how Gordon Gravett constructed his French meter-gauge layout "Pempoule"
At the moment the pin / blue foams are a new(ish) material when it comes to building layouts so there isn't an 'accepted standard' when it comes to using the stuff - hence multiple (and conflicting?) advice on the interwebby. Your best bet - if you can get the stuff - would be to make a small test piece layout to see what works best
for you.
Quote from: JulienW on December 17, 2019, 09:44
Aesthetic - creates a ballast shoulder (as Hobby suggests)
Gives a space below the track - as Hobby and others have suggested if you are using 'wire-in-tube' for point operation then an underlay is probably easier to cut than the top of the baseboard to make a route for the system.
Smoothing - underlay creates a smooth surface to lay the track on.
Sound deadening - The right underlay can acoustically decouple the trains from the 'sounding board' base board.
I agree with you Julien that those are the reasons people use it however I was trying to point out that it's not necessary as some people seem to think it is.
1. Yes it gives a ballast shoulder and why I am using it this time on Ostrovia, but if you look at photos of most British NG it tends to be at ground level so using it would make it too high.
2. Wire in tube or similar, if you use plywood as the baseboard you can cut a small groove in the top layer of wood just as easily as cutting a groove in ballast.
3. Smoothing - I would hope that this is not necessary, if you choose your baseboard wood carefully and brace it properly it will be flat and not need something to smooth it!
4. Sound deadening - I've always found that if you ballast with granite and PVA then any amount of cork underlay makes little difference, the issue is the baseboard "soundbox" rather than the track and that's what needs to be addressed.
I'm NOT saying don't use it, I myself use it sometimes. But what i am saying is that it's not a prerequisite as some people seem to imply it is. If it serves a purpose then use it but you don't have to!
Other underlay possibilities:
"cork replacement" foam - dark grey or black foam of about the same thickness as cork underlay. It comes in rolls of strip (Woodland Scenics, I think) but I bought it in sheet form (about A0 size).
Camping/yoga mat - similar consistency, but much thicker. A friend recommended it and it may be great for large scales and it may work for topping the whole of a baseboard but it did not work for me, cutting to track base width. Far to fiddly to cut neatly and all the track is on a low embankment. The camping/climbing shop was was having a sale and it came in good subdued earthy colours.
The thin foam by contrast is easy to cut with scissors or craft knife. I made the mistake initially of using carpet tape to fix it both to the baseboard and the track. It "grabbed" like anything making adjustment impossible and left overnight the track and underlay started to lift.
An impulse buy at a MR Show many years ago was a sort of black mastic track underlay. It claimed that it was possible to sink the track into it and then press ballast into it, even to be able to use it built up around the track to impress cobbles or setts into. I didn't really get on with it. The seller had only OO/H0 width and I ended up with a mess trying to cut it half length-ways.
I am inclined to try no underlay next time. I've heard of people using artist's acrylic medium that dries to a slightly rubbery consistency for fixing track and that sounds attractive.
Quote from: JulienW on December 17, 2019, 09:44
To come back specifically to polystyrene slabs - I assume that this is the blue or pink polystyrene foam rather than the white expanded polystyrene (though some of my comments can apply to the latter)
Yes its the latter :) I used to help kids make Warhammer scenery at school. This was made from polystrene scraps, covered either on our own mod-roc (PVA, plaster, water and cheap calico from the market), coated in B&Q vinyl emulsion (colored with whatever we could nick from Art) mixed with fine sand. This could be Ice, Red Mars, green earth (using green scatter material) and was so hard it could take the skin off your knuckles, so should be fine on my railway
it is a material that doesn't 'hold' fixings - track pins for example - very well, and there is probably a need to fix something to the polystyrene with an adhesive, like wood or card, to give a firm flat smooth surface on which to lay the track.
That's why I was thinking cork, it won'd mind getting wet during ballasting
The foam is also not too resilient (it is easily damaged) so afaik the usual practice is to reinforce the edges of the foam board with another material - think ply or card - and I can imagine that the same thinking would lead someone to do the same with the track bed (and any road surfaces in the landscape) - essentially making the baseboard a very lightweight frame of sides, ends and track bed held together with the foam board.
This is a very small test layout, just an inglenook, for me to experiment on, built on a piece of old shelving 19"x10". The frame will be external, a bit like a tea tray so the foam will under the lip at all points.
Thanks, that has helped clarify my thoughts no end, I have a plan now. This is a big learning curve at the moment, which I am enjoying but I would rater avoid the easy mistakes if possible as it is freezing cold and horrible in garage so the sooner I can finish the messy stuff and bring it in for track laying etc the better :)
Quote from: Hobby on December 17, 2019, 10:33
1. Yes it gives a ballast shoulder and why I am using it this time on Ostrovia, but if you look at photos of most British NG it tends to be at ground level so using it would make it too high.
I agree completely, I couldn't work out at first why people used it, most NG railways I have visited only seem to have had a nodding acquaintance to the stuff, so why build it up. But then most YouTube videos and standard gauge.
2. Wire in tube or similar, if you use plywood as the baseboard you can cut a small groove in the top layer of wood just as easily as cutting a groove in ballast.
This test layout is an inglenook, I was planning to use wire and tube to a pair of R/C servos hidden in a small building, so that would help
3. Smoothing - I would hope that this is not necessary, if you choose your baseboard wood carefully and brace it properly it will be flat and not need something to smooth it!
Normally this would be fine, but I want to make it look like a hill side so the track will be on 1" of polystyrene, which will have pits dug into it. I was thinking give it a coat of vinyl emulsion first, then a strip of cork to make sure its smooth. Either that or balsa.
4. Sound deadening - I've always found that if you ballast with granite and PVA then any amount of cork underlay makes little difference, the issue is the baseboard "soundbox" rather than the track and that's what needs to be addressed.
This is very small an 18"x9" plank, so shouldn't be n issue :-)
I'm NOT saying don't use it, I myself use it sometimes. But what i am saying is that it's not a prerequisite as some people seem to imply it is. If it serves a purpose then use it but you don't have to!
Thanks, that has re-enforced my ideas. I am pretty clear what I need to do now.
Stephen
Quote from: GraemeD on December 17, 2019, 11:02
I am inclined to try no underlay next time. I've heard of people using artist's acrylic medium that dries to a slightly rubbery consistency for fixing track and that sounds attractive.
That's that sounds like another list of things to avoid. Thanks.
Another one that interested me was an Aussie guy (at least I think he was Aussie) who made up a mix of PVA, Tetrion and pumice, he laid that out in long thin strips then pushed his track down into it, so fixing and ballasting in one step. The track was kept still while it dried by dressmaking pins pushed through holes drilled in the sleepers. As soon as I can find the link I will post it.
One thing you can do is cover the whole board with the stuff, that way you will keep the "ground level" look.
Quote from: Hobby on December 18, 2019, 10:13
One thing you can do is cover the whole board with the stuff, that way you will keep the "ground level" look.
That's a good shout. Thanks
Stephen