Sorry, couldn't post it under 'Exhibitions; here for you to have a quiet think, if you're building for exhibitions, or just going there.
2 years ago I cycled to work, now I need a mobility scooter for anything that
Join the club... My disabled wife won't go for many of the reasons stated...
If you do a web search for "layout height" you will find it's been discussed seemingly forever on most model railway forums. The discussion falls into two camps, one being the ones who make sure that their layout is visible from a wheelchair (ALL mine are) and those who don't and recon that a periscope is perfectly acceptable but must be provided by the disabled person/exhibition organiser, not themselves, even though it's they that have caused the viewing problem, not the wheelchair user. The discussion also gets very heated as well, i warn you.
One day those who advocate "eye level" layouts (those at standing eye level) may be unfortunate to suffer an injury or illness which affects their viewing level, and whilst I wouldn't want that on my worst enemy it may change their perspectives. I would suggest to anyone that thinks high layouts are acceptable to spend the day going round an exhibition in a wheelchair (I can provide our spare one!) and see how the other half lives...
BTW W., my wife suffers from SPS, a very, very rare neurological condition, what is yours?
Thank you Leprechaun for this eye-opener.
A part that particularly caught my eye was the remark that "or I can't find out how accessible they are". A lot of your challenges are going to take an earthquake to fix but unavailability of information needn't be one of them.
Could our society take a stand and demand that any exhibition at which it is represented must be clear about certain details in its announcements, along the lines of:
- entrance accessibility
- toilet accessibility
- parking accessibility
- (possibly disabled discounts)
- other aspects I'm not expert on?
- (and this one will probably be met with moans of it's "too hard to determine") proportion of layouts above and below (insert logical height)
Or are there some national standards that we should adhere to?
I would like to see that our society actually puts some oomph into this. I live in Ukraine, where I think most people would find this subject very puzzling.
Chaps,
That's quicker than I expected....; sounds I've raised a hot topic. ;D
Thanks for the encouraging answers.
Hobby, to answer your question:
I have Inclusion Body Myositis (IBM), which is a genetically caused neurological muscle wastage decease; in layman terms: my muscles are wasting, because I lose control over them as the nerve connection into the muscle stops working. It is rare, less than 600 people in the UK have it. It is progressive, i.e. I will lose more and more of my ability to do anything, but it's not lethal as it only affects the skeletal muscle (those attached to and moving bones).
I also have Sjoegren, which is a rare form of rheumatism, which could be treated, but for the fact that the medication doesn't work on IBM sufferers.
Which makes my diabetes and sciatica mere benign nuisances.
As I admitted in my post, I shared that view regarding layout heights until I became disabled; 4 years back I thought: great they provide steps for my grandson, now I think: oh-oh, sh..., trouble ahead. One of the reasons I wrote the article: having transitioned from abled to disabled within such a fairly short period, I'm more cognisant of the 'loss' and impact than somebody who has been disabled all their life, i.e. don't know any better.
Your reply confirms another experience of mine: those who are disabled, and those who care for disabled rate the problems much higher than the abled section of society, who do not provide for a disabled.
Which brings me neatly on to:
Tom,
Thanks for throwing your weight behind this, we disabled need all the help we can get; and it is disheartening and depressing, if you find yourself unable to do things you could do a year ago (like undoing nuts you tightened up yourself with ease a year ago), but it is even more depressing if you have to constantly ask: excuse me, can you let me pass, especially in a crowd where the next person MUST have heard you asking before. As a disabled you just give up; - or drive over some toes, if your desperation for the loo demands drastic action.
I wrote this actually for our magazine, but it wasn't published there, but yes, as right as you are, even an earthquake starts with a little tremor. That's not saying I wrote this to cause an earthquake, but your support will go a long way to help shift cultures and attitudes, so keeping on the trickle will hollow the stone.
Yes, providing the information is easy, requires little effort, and goes a long way to help us disabled. As would a remark on the invitation to exhibitors along the lines of: We expect you to set up your layout with due consideration for disabled, e.g. the main part of the layout not higher than 0,6m above ground, no bright flashing lights at a rate faster than 3Hz (it causes epileptic fits; some sellers have 'disco-lights'), etc..
Likewise I do not think it overly onerous for abled to steer clear around disabled. I appreciate it might be challenging in a crowded hall, but is it too onerous? ???
Thanks for your support
Waldschrat
I like the way your argument is presented, not as a warlike challenge as some have in the past which I do not think has helped , but something for consideration.
The most striking thing is "I always subscribed to the philosophy that having your models at eye level gives you a more realistic perspective." and that is the crux of the problem - until something effects oneself then such considerations do not come into the mix.
I have never built a layout more than a couple of inches above kitchen table top height, mainly because when my children were young I did not like the idea of 'steps' to view a layout, and I am always concerned about stability. As I have got older I have found the choice to be helpful as now my own layouts must usualy be operated from a seat at least part of the time.
Layouts are usually built by individuals and will represent their own choices, whilst it would be ideal for exhibitions to only show those layouts that are accessible to all then it is unlikely if that would restrict or reduce the availability of layouts - particularly popular ones. Club layouts could perhaps be built with accessibility in mind but it would need someone to drive that forward within a club or group.
Often the facilities are not down to the exhibition organisers but the venue and if found not to be appropriate then challenging the venue seems to me to be the way forward because if it affects disabled people for one event then it stands to reason that it will affect another event at the venue. The choice of available venues may not make it possible for the organiser to use another place, but I take your point it should be taken into account.
Other viewers cannot be legislated for, rudeness and lack of consideration are difficulties that cannot be overcome easily. However I am afraid that there is another side to that coin, wheelchair users who race around, try to force their way through crowds, lack proper control of their machine (rather than loosing control) and crash into layouts etc.
Rules and regulations do not fix everything and there has to be a lot of give and take.
Quote from: Mac Strong on December 20, 2018, 10:28Often the facilities are not down to the exhibition organisers but the venue and if found not to be appropriate then challenging the venue seems to me to be the way forward
This was done by a disabled person to an exhibition local to me. They invoked the Law as it is but the organisers/venue owners just chose to ignore the ruling and there was damn all else that could be done. A boycott of such venues by exhibition managers would be far better but when even they couldn't give a damn then you've had it. Incidentally this exhibition is still held in the (unsuitable) building
even though there are plenty of suitable alternatives nearby.I will never attend this exhibition and if asked why will tell people the reasons.
This is a very complex problem to which I dont think there can be an answer suitable for everyone .
Whilst I appreciate the problem of people in wheelchairs there is also the problem that people who can stand will also want to see layouts at eye level so who do you please ?
I must admit that when i did exhibit my layouts were always low level but that was because I didn't have any legs for them and had to rely upon the organisers to provide tables .
Perhaps one answer is that organisers try and include some low level layouts but even if they did then there would only be a few visible by those in wheelchairs.
Certainly exhibitions nowadays should be accesible by all but layouts ?????
Thoughtful responses all, so far, I think.
I would like to repeat my proposal that *information* about accessibility be absolutely required - and I proposed that the Society insist on it for any exhibition it is involved in. I don't think we are ready for mandating anything above and beyond the law; and the point that people who are able to stand often value an eye-level layout is not to be dismissed.
Does anybody second my motion that the Society require accessibility information to be announced? It wouldn't cost anybody anything.
My boss at work suggested a plow or ram to push people aside, another colleague complaint that I drive too fast (8mph is the top speed, i.e. what the lawmakers considered NOT too fast). If you walk with somebody in a mobility aid in a crowd you'll soon find yourself looking for the sword to clear the path, or at least the very big stick. So, if you find yourself facing an aggressive scooterista, it is not necessarily an aggressive or rude person, it might just be somebody who has run out of patience, - or is desperate for the loo. No excuse, it shouldn't happen, but while it is frustrating to be dependant on these machines, developing the patience and tolerance not to get aggressive while driving them, is a very serious challenge.
And even my partner occasionally runs out of patience when I can't get through; occasionally I even get help from strangers shooing people out of my way.
My experience is that going a top speed helps to keep pedestrians keeping a safe distance, i.e. the moment you slow down people encroach into your safety zone (even at the lowest speed you need about a foot to stop, and in a crowd you might have to reverse abruptly to defuse a dangerous situation developing, but people are stepping straight behind you, so you're nailed). :(
The only time I drove over toes was last year's company Christmas dinner: I had to go to the toilet, which meant I had to get past the bar. After honking and shouting eventually the crowd parted, everybody fighting for their space at the bar. I told them the alley isn't wide enough, they told me it is. With the pressure in my bladder rising I had to go. Of course I'm sorry, but I can't help people who think they know better and don't listen; sometimes you just have to make the point. >:(
This is not a subject to go to war over, and all I ask for is a bit of mindfulness (used to be common sense, but that seems to have gone the way of the Dodo). ;D
Of course, my disability doesn't effect my mind and senses, and as a truck driver for emergency vehicles (advanced driver; history, one of those things I lost the strength for) I have the training, skill and experience to get my scooter through the most challenging squeezes.
However, most mobility scooters are used by elderly people, and not necessarily the most skilful drivers. But here is the question: Should they be denied the freedom these machines give them, and told to stay home? Or is it reasonable to expect abled to give them the wide berth?
To be clear, I'm fully agreeing: if a mobility aid driver crashes into exhibits left right and centre a considered (!) chat is on order that they is causing too much damage and that they ought to be leaving unless they can walk around; obviously offering a companion with a wheelchair would be the optimum compromise.
Sounds cruel? I have been training 3 people on mobility scooters, and I am clear about my pupils' competencies after the training, BECAUSE I don't want them to die in a road traffic accident. Family and friends struggle to be straight, and aren't listened to anyway (what do they know etc. bladibla). As a stranger your assessment carries much more weight, and while a single comment will not achieve much, it is the multitude that will change a mind. So, be cruel to be kind, you might safe a life! I'm still consulted by my scooter driving school pupils, we still occasionally drive together, and we discuss our driving to ensure maximum safety, for us as much as for everybody else.
Most public buildings (schools; community centres etc.) today are fairly accessible to mobility aids (legal requirement; Building Regulations Part M). And I'm content to accept, as an organiser there might be good reason to use an option less accessible; - the consequence is you lose some customers like me.
However, the reason I started this thread was to raise awareness, and maybe one or the other can muster the energy to use my post as a checklist and go find a better venue? Certainly things won't change if we don't talk about it, or not?
Disability can be a lot of things, not necessarily visible, e.g. epilepsy sufferers are perfectly normal people until aa fit happens; but then they need help, and that quickly. I'm sitting comfortably in my scooter, no problem waiting in a queue; but their are some walking disabled who can't stand long. I can't either if I walk with a stick, so waiting in a queue is an agonising pain (as iit physically hurts). Are you checking in a queue and usher those forward that are in discomfort?
I'm 'guilty' as anybody, and I wasn't aware how painful it is until my disability kicked in. So now I check, and I usher others to go in front of me if I'm in my scooter, and that includes parents with children if these look distressed.
Should I ask you to do the same? I'm not sure, it's a judgement call (if I'm desperate for the loo I don't), but I mention it so you can make up your mind.
If I said: let us treat each other as if they were our favourite grandmother or grandfather, would that sum it up?
And I apologise upfront as I know with my disability I shan't be able to return you favours in kind.
Waldschrat
It started off well, but his last two posts in my eyes do not help. There are ways of approaching the enlightening of others and the first post was an excellent example of that. Unfortunately his disregard for the health and safety of others in those last two posts is inexcusable and to accuse someone of being a vigilante just because they say they would report someone breaking the law is even worse. For that reason I have deleted my two final posts except for the links to the Law regarding scooter use on pavements and the one for training and insurance which I hope will show newcomers the proper way forward. My wife is disabled and I take matters concerning access, etc., very seriously, however there are ways of doing it that don't antagonise the general public and ways that can turn them against you. That initial post was a good example of the former, the last two the opposite.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/rules-for-users-of-powered-wheelchairs-and-mobility-scooters-36-to-46
https://www.chartwellinsurance.co.uk/blog/mobility-scooter-training-courses/
This is a very difficult subject and one not likely to be solved easily.
I would also like to point out a couple of incidences that have occured in the last 2 years that I know of.
There have been two cases in model railway exhibitions when a mobility scooter took out layouts and wiring causing a fair amount of damage and a fair
amount of costs to the exhibitors and the model railway club.
To my knowledge no one was injured, but you could not say that of the stock and layouts.
I witnessed a case while visiting a M&S store in Southport.
Up on the first floor is a cafe and a chap with his scooter was purchasing a drink and sandwich.
The kind lady behind the counter said, I will carry your items and find you a table. The guy had turned the front wheels into the front of the counter and when he tried to move he was stuck, he then through it into reverse without looking.
Sadly a lady standing behind was struck and thrown to the floor, she was taken to hospital with suspected broken legs.
Possibly a life changing situation for the victim.
Stan.
That's why I said people should have proper official training before using them, Stan, and be insured. In theory that woman and the exhibitor could sue the scooter user for damages, same as you can sue a cyclist (though they are harder to catch!) if you use one you should be aware of that. There's been at least one scooter user charged with ABH and criminal damage. My layout "A Taste of Alber" was "nudged" by a scooter at Expo this year, though luckily without damage, I suspect many more similar incidents also go unreported. The trouble is that many of those that use them have no experience of driving a vehicle and many others no longer drive cars because ogf health issues but drive scooters even though the same health issues affect their ability to drive them safely.
Glad you misread. ;D
I didn't indicate anything, and you're speculating. :laugh:
Glad to hear that you are one of those vigilantes that is keen to stoke the flames of war, and nurture the road-wars we have already going. >:(
My class 2 scooter does just about 4mph, calibrated with GPS, and neither my partner nor my boss, who both are quite fit, can keep up with it by walking. As I haven't read your name amongst the top 10 speed walkers in any recent competition, I'm content to tell you you're NOT walking 4mph. There are VERY FEW people who can walk at 4mph for any distance, don't be mislead by other scooters who have top speeds of less than 4mph; quite a lot actually do. Both, my partner and my boss, who is over 6ft. tall, have to RUN to keep up with 4mph; walking that pace requires considerable training.
So, who do you think you are, that gives you the right to command others what to do? All class 2 are restricted to 4mph by law, and all class 3 to 8mph; but quite a lot don't even achieve this (my class 3 does only 7mph). If you've got a problem with that, ask the enforcement agencies to take action; unless of course, you are part of one, AND it is within your remit.
The last thing we need is vigilantes like you. :(
But there is another side to the story as well. So far everybody nearly falling over my scooter, about 6 times in one year, has been me and my scooter static, as in zero speed. The problem is not the speed of mobility scooters, the problem is people jaywalking without their eyes on the road! You can even honk and shout at them, and they don't notice or react! >:(
I always pull my English friends of the cycle path etc. when we are in Germany. You see, Germans grow up and walk on the edge of the footpath leaving room to pass, English jaywalk, even off the footpath into the cycle path. There is a problem with discipline, and that's not just mobility scooters, it is even more for bicycles (I used to cycle to work until 3 years ago). If we want more bicycles on the road without making the road-war between bicycles and the rest worse (mobility scooters are only a minor side action in this war), there is a lot of education to be done with pedestrians and motor-vehicle drivers here in the UK; including changes to the laws, which are not fit for purpose as they are out-dated.
I come from a different culture, we were heading into this road-war scenario in the 1970s, and we stopped it with a change of laws, a change of road layouts, and most importantly, with a change of attitude and behaviours. I go to Scandinavia, all the German countries and the Netherlands, and there is no problem as pedestrians walk along the edge, don't jaywalk, and don't stand in the middle of footpaths to be in everybody's' way.
You're sure you don't do that either?
So maybe, before you scream and shout at others, have a look at yourself, what are you doing that forces others to do what they shouldn't be doing? ;D
8mph is legal, it is even written in the links you reference, so maybe you should have good read of them, and stop cherry-picking what you fancy? ;D
And if you think mobility scooters and bike MUST have insurance, than please be reasonable and fair, and mandate that for everybody out in the road walking and running; any reasonably fit runner can be faster than 8mph, but the scooters have the shorter stopping distance. I've been cycling since the age of 8, i.e. circa 50 years, collisions with cars 3, caused by me: NIL! Collisions with pedestrians: NIL!
Cycling safety only became an issue in the UK: no cycling paths that are fit for purpose, dangerous road layouts, jaywalking pedestrians, oblivious vehicle drivers, - all problems that ONLY are a major concern when cycling in the UK and Eire!
I'm sorry, I can't agree with you because it is an attitude like yours that creates tension, friction and road rage; and no insurance will fix that! Pray, go ahead with your attitude, and you will have massive problem with road discipline in the not too distant future as everybody will take up this vigilante approach and ignore the laws and principles of societal courtesy. If you don't believe me, go to Amsterdam or Muenster, and see how it should be. We spent an hour in Amsterdam in the summer just watching 2 crossing main thoroughfares for bicycles in fascination; not ones (!) did anybody say anything, even though quite a few tourists messed up the otherwise smooth flow. Discipline, courtesy, mindfulness, and paying attention to what you do is all that it needs, jolly impressive show that was. For comparison go to London, and cyclists are aggressive, ignoring the rules of road, and dashing about like hares on the run; because they're chased by cars, jaywalking pedestrians all over the cycle paths and the roads, and a network of cycle paths that not only isn't fit for purpose, but also comprises more gaps than links.
Apologies for going somewhat off topic, but as I'm not just disabled, but also a foreigner, I felt that Hobby's comment needed a riposte, because he voiced a widespread view that implies an unhelpful attitude; easier to spot for somebody, who's culture has spent considerable effort to extract itself from this unhealthy attitude.
Waldschrat
8mph is NOT legal on pavements, I suggest you read it again, especially this section:
"Rule 39
Powered wheelchairs and scooters MUST NOT travel faster than 4 mph (6 km/h) on pavements or in pedestrian areas. You may need to reduce your speed to adjust to other pavement users who may not be able to move out of your way quickly enough or where the pavement is too narrow."
Hobby , I agree with you 100% . Yes we should all look out for & make space for people on disability scooters etc. But I also agree with you on cyclists. Yes, they are also entitled to use the roads, but I get very annoyed when they ride two or three abreast, blocking the road so you can't overtake. That's just greedy road Hoggnes. Bugger off hand let the road tax payers access to the roads we've paid for.
This topic is now locked.
Thiis is a forum for 009 /HOe / HOn30 & associated scale / gauge railway modelling.
If you want to rant & rave about other subjects then please go elsewhere.
Garry