I've got a lovely little Ibertren-chassised loco acquired from Sales which is struggling with my dead frog points, which I'm a bit surprised by because there appear to be pickups on both sets of wheels and the wheelbase is comfortably long enough that there is always one set in contact with live track. Looking carefully, however, the locations of the pickups are different between the front and rear axles: the front contacts with the wheel rim and the rear the edge of the flange (presumably because the front rims are smooth and the rear grooved for traction). And the sticking only occurs when the rear wheels are running over the frog.
So is this just a case of the front wheels and pickups needing a clean, or is there a fundamental problem with this chassis design and dead frogs? (Suggestions to switch to live frogs will be understood and ignored.)
Speaking personally I have never had any problem with Ibertren, or any other 4-wheel, chassis on points, either live or dead frog. Others will disagree but in my case I do ensure all pickups are clean and adjusted properly so they make firm contact with the wheels.
Another source of problems with current pickup on the Ibertren chassis is the pickup extensions which make contact with the motor. These can move around and the best course of action is to solder these to the motor contacts. Since there is quite a lot of tolerance in these chassis it is just possible that the movement over the frogs is enough to affect the contacts on the motor. Worth trying anyway.
As long as the pickups are touching then it should be ok. However it could be other issues not connected with the pickups. Have you tried running it through very slowly (pushing it if necessary) to see if one of the wheels is lifting when it hits the frog so losing contact and electrical pickup? That could be down to the depth of the flange striking the base of the plastic frog (some old chassis had wheels with pizza cutter flanges) or another possibility is the wheel's back to back is out giving a similar result.
Dear Arrowsmith,
Why not test it out? If you put the engine upside down in a cradle you can take 2 wires from your power supply and check whether each wheel has proper contact with its electric pick up.
You do not mention the brand of point you're having trouble with. On some brands the plastic point tip is slightly higher than the adjoining rail and it might lift the other wheel off the rail, i.e. one wheel on the plastic, one in the air = no contact.
There was (maybe is) a German supplier that produced etched electrical pick-ups that ride the rails. I've seen quite a few engines fitted with these, so it appears a good idea. You do not mention what you plan to do with the engine, but if you add a 009 body, increasing the weight, it might be a good idea to add some pickups that collect straight from the track?
Just some ideas... :laugh:
Cheers
Waldschrat
So I checked whether the plastic was lifting a wheel as suggested and noticed that although it's not (Peco points, BTW) the front wheels are lifted slightly anyway. It's an 0-4-2 arrangement (I bought it as a built model of Talyllyn) and its centre of gravity is distinctly towards the rear, so that at rest it's sitting on the rear drive/pickup wheels and the pony wheels and there's a definite air gap between front rims and track head. So it looks like the solution will be to add some extra weight towards the front to tip it back down.
Dear Arrowsmith,
Good to hear you're getting somewhere; I would agree that weight on the drivers, rather than the pony truck, is a good ides. :laugh:
Good luck
Waldschrat
Quote from: S Arrowsmith on December 12, 2018, 17:32
So I checked whether the plastic was lifting a wheel as suggested and noticed that although it's not (Peco points, BTW) the front wheels are lifted slightly anyway. It's an 0-4-2 arrangement (I bought it as a built model of Talyllyn) and its centre of gravity is distinctly towards the rear, so that at rest it's sitting on the rear drive/pickup wheels and the pony wheels and there's a definite air gap between front rims and track head. So it looks like the solution will be to add some extra weight towards the front to tip it back down.
The other solution, maybe not such a good idea on a built kit though, is to replace some of the cast white metal cab parts (roof and back sheet) with lighter materials - brass or plastic.
I suspect that the best solution may be a mixture of the two (ballast in the smokebox and tank front and replacing the white metal cab roof), especially if there isn't enough room for sufficient ballast in the front end.
A final thought if using the "liquid lead" (also known as mist shot) or any other form of lead is to avoid using PVA glue to hold it in place. As the PVA cures it releases small amounts of acetic acid which reacts with the lead to form lead acetate which takes up much more volume than the unreacted lead and the resulting swelling of the ballast in a sealed area (say a boiler) can cause real damage to models.
I never use dead frog points because of issues like this and would never recommend that anyone else uses them. Stick with electrofrog points only and the problem will be far less. But that will not help you now.
I do however agree with the comments about adding weight to locos, provided it is balanced on the driving wheels this may help.
Also, as to your issue, one of the problems with the old Ibertren chassis when they have been used a bit is that the axles become rather lose in the chassis block. This results in one wheel lifting slightly so it does not touch the rails all the time. Obviously, this is not as much of a problem in an electrofrog point, but it will cause the loco to stall in a dead frog point.
Even though I use all electrofrog points I have re-bushed all the axles in my Ibertren locos, replacing the brass axle sleeve with a new one machined to the correct size to remove all the play.
You need to remember that these Ibertren chassis are now all at least 26 years old and they cost as little at
Quote from: JulienW on December 12, 2018, 22:42
A final thought if using the "liquid lead" (also known as mist shot) or any other form of lead is to avoid using PVA glue to hold it in place. As the PVA cures it releases small amounts of acetic acid which reacts with the lead to form lead acetate which takes up much more volume than the unreacted lead and the resulting swelling of the ballast in a sealed area (say a boiler) can cause real damage to models.
This is just one reason why my weighting preference is the lead-free Liquid Gravity ;)
If you want to improve contact between rail and wheel use Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF). You need, and you want only the slightest whiff, e.g. for the standard 'beginner's pack' oval from Eggerbahn or Jouef you need only a quarter of a drop on your tissue to wipe over.
Either VERY slightly moisten a rag, or use a syringe to apply to one of the track cleaners you attach to the axles (from gaugemaster; Noch; Woodland Scenics etc.).
The effect is amazing; if it isn't it was too little; do it again; better than too much 1st time round. :laugh:
Cheers
Waldschrat
Update: I've managed to add some weight into the smokebox, and it's a massive improvement, although still not 100% reliable. I suspect a lot of my reliability problems at the moment, though, are due to a lack of track cleanliness as layout construction has ground to a halt (again).
Quote from: Leprechaun on December 18, 2018, 15:34
If you want to improve contact between rail and wheel use Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF). You need, and you want only the slightest whiff, e.g. for the standard 'beginner's pack' oval from Eggerbahn or Jouef you need only a quarter of a drop on your tissue to wipe over.
Either VERY slightly moisten a rag, or use a syringe to apply to one of the track cleaners you attach to the axles (from gaugemaster; Noch; Woodland Scenics etc.).
The effect is amazing; if it isn't it was too little; do it again; better than too much 1st time round. :laugh:
Cheers
Waldschrat
As with graphite and products like railzip will using ATF oil reduce the haulage capabilities on layouts with grades?
It may work well on a flat layout, but if it does make the locos slip it would be useless on any layouts with grades.
Brian Meldon
Dear Brian,
The answer is a definite maybe. ;D
If it does, you used too much. :laugh:
Used correctly it doesn't, as in not noticeably. :police:
You're right that ATF is a mineral oil based product, but its lubrication quality is very limited. On the other hand its corrosion inhibition qualities are very good, and it is electrically conductive.
If you have the 'Fleischmann Tips' (originally in the 1970s a C5 ring binder, where you were supposed to get regular updates) you will find that they strongly advise to wipe the cleaned rails slightly with an oily rag (lubrication oil). They don't tell you, but it is to supress sparks by enhancing rail-wheel contact; - same idea, only dating back to a time before ATF became common. And my layout in the 1970s had 2 very steep ramps, and I applied the oil as per instruction, and it didn't make a difference (for the pulling capacity; it improved radio reception substantially though! ;D)
Lesson: any good old analogue radio is quite suitable to check your wheel-rail contact: the less crackling (=sparking), the better the contact. But don't forget: most of that crackling comes from the commutator-brushes contact. :laugh:
Hope this helps to appreciate the finer point of my recommendation.
By the bye, you can find plenty of footage regarding this recommendation on youtube, i.e. you don't have to believe me. ::)
Cheers
Waldschrat
Quote from: Leprechaun on January 22, 2019, 17:41
Dear Brian,
The answer is a definite maybe. ;D
If it does, you used too much. :laugh:
Used correctly it doesn't, as in not noticeably. :police:
You're right that ATF is a mineral oil based product, but its lubrication quality is very limited. On the other hand its corrosion inhibition qualities are very good, and it is electrically conductive.
If you have the 'Fleischmann Tips' (originally in the 1970s a C5 ring binder, where you were supposed to get regular updates) you will find that they strongly advise to wipe the cleaned rails slightly with an oily rag (lubrication oil). They don't tell you, but it is to supress sparks by enhancing rail-wheel contact; - same idea, only dating back to a time before ATF became common. And my layout in the 1970s had 2 very steep ramps, and I applied the oil as per instruction, and it didn't make a difference (for the pulling capacity; it improved radio reception substantially though! ;D)
Lesson: any good old analogue radio is quite suitable to check your wheel-rail contact: the less crackling (=sparking), the better the contact. But don't forget: most of that crackling comes from the commutator-brushes contact. :laugh:
Hope this helps to appreciate the finer point of my recommendation.
By the bye, you can find plenty of footage regarding this recommendation on youtube, i.e. you don't have to believe me. ::)
Cheers
Waldschrat
Obviously, this works for you.
However, I have layouts where the grades make any reduction in haulage an issue.
I just clean the track with a fine grade contact cleaning rubber, regularly clean the loco wheels and never use dead frog points.
I have found that using a fine track rubber on the track even helps a little with adhesion.
Yes, it may be more work than using fluids, but we do get near perfect running at exhibitions and at home.
It should be noted that Fleischmann track has steel rails not nickel silver so the guidance given may well be based on their own track not the nickel silver rails we use in 009.
Brian Meldon
Dear Brian,
When my copy of the 'Fleischmann Tips' was released their track was brass, and their old tin-foil track history; - no, they were not producing N-gauge then, they just had stopped producing 0-gauge. :laugh:
Since you're delving so far into history:
Herkat sold a track-groover that allowed you to grind grooves into your rails for better grip; and there were/ are some engines around with grooved wheels to improve grip.
That said I have not seen any of those, and there are no reports on the successful application either.
From an engineering point of view coarse grooves will not improve traction (unless traction tyres are used), but certainly cause contact issues. Fine grooves, i.e. those made with a track-cleaning rubber, are less likely to cause contact problems; - initially. I have 0-gauge track lying around, which has been ruined with track-cleaning rubbers, i.e. is beyond usable because of the grooving in the rail heads as it has massive contact issues.
Whether the improved traction is an effect of the cleaned track, or caused by the roughening of the surface, is a matter of debate; - at least until you can produce some convincing test results. ;)
However, if, as you say, you're riding the edge of traction, you must have quite some wear and tear from slipping wheels. I operated a model railway like that when I was a child, but now I abstain from such operations; if desperate I use rack & pinion.
Sure enough, you are at liberty to push the (physical) limits, and it is not for me to criticise, but for the benefit of the other readers we should highlight the implications of that choice, i.e. increased wear and tear on both track and wheels (and probably gearing and motor).
By the bye, the last time I was at MiWuLa, they were ripping out and replacing all the Maerklin track. Reason: Pukos (they are made from steel !) worn down (which causes shorts); just to say, it's not just the engines that wear out... :laugh:
Or, to paraphrase: the more you use your track rubber, the sooner you'll need to replace the track. :D Not something you worry about with fluids. ;D
The last time I used sand paper (mind you: 600grit) on track was as a teenager. Today, the most abrasive I use is Brasso (Vienna lime), and that's only to restore 2nd-hand track. :D
You choose
Waldschrat
After quite a while of non-use (during a period of illness), I found that my Peco track had corroded somewhat in the garage. Probably, this was over a period of 2-3 winters !
As it affected only a few inches of track here and there, I took a piece of very fine 'wet-and-dry' (about 120 I think) and carefully removed the 'rusty' sections making sure that all was still level with a straight edge. This was followed by running a rag moistened with meth's all over.
I was pleasantly surprised when my Bachmann and Farish locos ran quite nicely over nearly everything first time...I had to repeat this in one or two places to get a completely trouble-free run. There was some 'pick up' on the wheels after the first few runs, but, ever since all has been well...
Lucky ?
Dave
Quote from: Leprechaun on January 23, 2019, 14:12
Dear Brian,
......................
Since you're delving so far into history:
Herkat sold a track-groover that allowed you to grind grooves into your rails for better grip; and there were/ are some engines around with grooved wheels to improve grip.
That said I have not seen any of those, and there are no reports on the successful application either.
From an engineering point of view coarse grooves will not improve traction (unless traction tyres are used), but certainly cause contact issues. Fine grooves, i.e. those made with a track-cleaning rubber, are less likely to cause contact problems; - initially. I have 0-gauge track lying around, which has been ruined with track-cleaning rubbers, i.e. is beyond usable because of the grooving in the rail heads as it has massive contact issues.
Whether the improved traction is an effect of the cleaned track, or caused by the roughening of the surface, is a matter of debate; - at least until you can produce some convincing test results. ;)
Waldschrat
As it happens the Ibertren 0-4-0, that is the subject of this thread, has groves on the rear driving wheels. Why they did this and what effect this has I have no idea.
I do not intend to do extensive documented testing to prove that using a fine track rubber improves adhesion on grades, I have just seen from experience that it does.
However, this could well be down to other factors apart from the tiny groves in the rail head, it could be just that it cleans any potentially slippery deposits from the rails.
As I said I do not intend to research the reasons, I will just keep doing what I have always done to good effect.
Brian Meldon
Dear Brian,
The Ibertren wheels is the same concept as the Herkat rail grinder, one groves the rail, one the wheels. Put the two together and you have a rack railway. ;D
As the Herkat grinder vanished from sale some time end of 60s, and I have not seen any raving reports, I'm happy to agree it doesn't work; the good old steam tractors seem to confirm that too: unless you're in the mud smooth tyres work better, and steel wheels shoed with rubber (=traction tyres) works even better. :laugh:
I'm sure Ibertren did it to improve traction and/ or electrical pick-up. The latter might work, but I'm doubtful, the former certainly doesn't.
Anyway, if you're happy with your solution, why change? There is compromise somewhere in every solution, and you decide where your preferences are. ;D
Kind Regards
Waldschrat