Having just returned to modelling after 50 years I got out my old controllers an H & M Clipper with a controlled 12v D.C. output plus 12v D.C. and 16v A.C. uncontrolled output, maximym output 1 amp. and a Tri-ang P.4 controller output 12v D.C. continuous rating 1 amp. In OO9 News I have read warnings that old controllers and nieuwe loco motors are not compatible but the local model shop guy here in Utrecht says there should be no problem. I have a Bachmann Baldwin on order and a CWR body waiting to be fitted to a Kato chassis.
Can anyone advise me on this? And should the verdicht be that the controllers are not suitable is there a way to modify?
I would say that there is no assurance that these old style controllers will not possibly damage modern small motors. They use a resistance in series with the motor to reduce the current, but with the small currents drawn by latest motors, they are neither successful in reducing speed, nor regulating current.
There is no practical way to modify the controllers themselves; however, the uncontrolled outputs from the H&M may be used to power a modern "hand-held" controller. There have been endless dicussions on this forum, and others, about the very best controllers to choose! :) In my opinion, for starters the Gaugemaster range - I use ones based on the type W (http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=GMC-W&style=&strType=&Mcode=Gaugemaster+W) would be satisfactory.
Whilst it is not axiomatic that 'old' controllers will damage modern motors, undoubtedly they will not give you anywhere near the degree of slow running the modern locos are capable of and that we have come to expect. You can buy a Gaugemaster Combi for under
Agree with the others, sell on your old controllers and buy something decent, of the commercial "rtr" ones the Gaugemaster W seems to be the best all rounder. You could keep the clipper and use the 16vAC output to power the W, save having to buy an 16vAC transformer!
I agree with the others. Sell the old controllers and get a Gaugemaster W or Combi.
Do have a look at Morley controllers, I have a Vector and for seventy five pounds you get twin track control plus two handheld controllers plus the master has a built in CDU.
Excellent value and we'll made.
Quote from: Steve Facknell on June 10, 2018, 08:10
Do have a look at Morley controllers, I have a Vector and for seventy five pounds you get twin track control plus two handheld controllers plus the master has a built in CDU.
Excellent value and we'll made.
I'll endorse that! I bought one of these a few years ago when they were
*
I have no experience of Morley controllers and therefore would not wish to disagree with Mick Thornton. However, it would be wise to be aware that they have combined speed and direction knob. Many of us with experience of exhibition running prefer the type where these two functions are separate
Thanks for the advice guys.
Quote from: Steve Facknell on June 10, 2018, 08:10
Do have a look at Morley controllers, I have a Vector and for seventy five pounds you get twin track control plus two handheld controllers plus the master has a built in CDU.
Excellent value and we'll made.
I also prefer a centre off direction switch to a bi-directional speed control knob.
Also
Christopher and Brian are quite right regarding the direction switching etc. I dug my Morley out last night to ensure that I had given the correct description of its facilites - I had! However I had indeed failed to point out that on both the twin console control knobs and the handhelds that come with it, the knob travels through about 270 degrees with the centre off position at the top of the arc, but there is no physical notch to stop it, it just rotates through from one side to the other with the direction changing as it passes the top "0" position.
I don't think this would be a problem for home use if you have one eye on the controller as you move your train/trains around but do acknowledge that it could be a bit tiresome using the handhelds "by feel" as you can't tell by feel alone where the knob position is. Taking that into consideration however, for the current price of around
TBH I keep hearing of these other controllers but have yet to find one that controls the large variety of chassis (old right through to new) any better than my Gaugemaster W, or as cheaply, bearing in mind that guarantee... Mine has broken once (ask Julien and Charlie - I wasn't there when it went puff!) and was fixed free of charge even though I told them that I bought it secondhand and is now controlling my TTe stuff better than any of the dedicated Z controllers!
The current Morley does have a definite "click" at the centre off position on both the main unit and the hand-helds -- this seems to me to be better than separate switch which runs the risk of sudden accidental changes of direction, but clearly more experienced hands disagree! It claims to do common return, but that's not something I've tested -- the biggest plus points for it for me are the light and compact "all-in-one" nature of it.
Quote from: S Arrowsmith on June 12, 2018, 14:03
this seems to me to be better than separate switch which runs the risk of sudden accidental changes of direction, but clearly more experienced hands disagree!
It's more about what you are used to... Most of us older modellers (yes, Mick, I put myself amongst those now I've turned 60!! ;) ) were brought up on the HD and Triang "centre off" type of controller where the centre off was very "solid", if that's the right word. I've got used to the separate switch with a "forward - off - reverse" switch now and found i actually prefer it now, but that's just my preference. I can't see how you would switch the slider switch "accidentally" as it's nowhere near the knob where your finger would be, it would be easier to do it on a "centre off" knob controller than on a W for instance, especially if the centre off wasn't very pronounced...
I'd suggest Trevor tries a few before buying to see which he prefers?
Quote from: Hobby on June 12, 2018, 14:22
I'd suggest Trevor tries a few before buying to see which he prefers?
Good idea! Where are you situated, Trevor? Why not drop in to a members' day or show and have a chat with the operators. I'm sure they would let you try their controllers. I would (but then mine are home-made so outside the scope of this thread)
Hi all. Being new to 009 I bought a Bachmann Baldwin and a few wagons n track. I dug out my old h and m duette,connected the wires and crossed fingers turned the control knob. It worked perfectly. My question is,did I really need to buy the gaugemaster handheld controller?
Hi
Adam asked:
Being new to 009 I bought a Bachmann Baldwin and a few wagons n track. I dug out my old h and m duette,connected the wires and crossed fingers turned the control knob. It worked perfectly. My question is,did I really need to buy the gaugemaster handheld controller?
Personally I would discard any old controller of this vintage.
Because your old H&M is likely to be life expired some time soon. Does it stand up to modern electrical safety standards? if the plug has no plastic sheaths on the Live and neutral pins it is unlikely to pass a PAT (Portable Appliance Test). PAT testing may be a PITA but its for sound reasons. Is the risk worth it?
So my answer is YES.
However I would look at buying a DCC starter kit (NCE Powercab and the like) a sound equipped DCC decoder to suit the Baldwin.......
Cue thread drift into more DC v DCC
Quote from: Adam Burton on July 20, 2018, 21:23
Hi all. Being new to 009 I bought a Bachmann Baldwin and a few wagons n track. I dug out my old h and m duette,connected the wires and crossed fingers turned the control knob. It worked perfectly. My question is,did I really need to buy the gaugemaster handheld controller?
Alluding to what Andy says, even assuming the controller is in perfect working order - in which case it might be suitable for use with locomotives of a similar vintage - it is probably not a good idea to use it with modern 009 locos. I would hope that the new controller has some form of overload protection to protect the locomotive, but I suspect the old H&M controller has just a thermal cutout in the windings of the transformer designed to stop the transformer melting its insulation and producing a mains short or catching fire. With an old OO gauge loco there was hopefully some chance of smelling that a loco was getting hot and cutting the power before it was too late but that is less likely with a modern motor with very fine wire, whether it is coreless or not.
Edit: if there is thermal cutout, does it still work, and do you want to risk checking that it does?
Also you have much finer control on the handheld controller than the Duette, look how far the control knob travels... As for DCC this isn't the thread for it, if he'd have wanted DCC he'd have asked about it, however if you are going to consider DCC, Adam, now is the time before you buy any other locos. There are LOTS of threads on the pros and cons on the 'net so no need to clutter up this one, just do a google search of DC vs DCC! ;)
Hi
We all seem to be advocating buying new. And this is not the place to renew the DCC v DC conflict, However I'm sure we all want to be offering all options So:
Please also check out Radio Control Systems.
Andy
Thanks everyone for the replies. I use dcc on my o gauge layout and did consider using it on my 009 layout but thought I would go analogue on this one. A friend will be doing the wiring for me as he did for my o gauge. Looks like the duettes will be destined for the recycling centre!
Duettes also have "uncontrolled" outputs which can be useful to power other controllers or light buildings, may be not throw away!
Hi All,
New to the forum, this is my first post. I feel it is time to add some engineering to the discussion, and debunk some myth. ;D
The answer to the question in the title is:
Some controllers can damage certain motors, and not all motors work well under any controller, that is correct. However, this has nothing to do with old versus new.
Any controller that exceeds the maximum current a motor can handle will damage the motor. Problem with this statement: what is the maximum current, and what can a motor handle?
The quality of control is dependant on the match between controller and motor, and there is no
Part 2 Motors (we
Part 3 Motor
Thank you, Leprechaun - very interesting and valuable!
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6
Part 7
Part 8
It's certainly been an interesting read even if much of it has still gone "woosh" over the top of my head!
It just confirms my thoughts that for most of us who don't know (or need to know) electronics in any detail that buying a decent controller like GM W (substitute name of your own favourite, MickT!) solves the issue anyway.
(I might have another go at reading it at some point, but after I've made my next layout!)
Thanks for the information, though, even if I didn't understand it all!
Happy to shoot down the "woosh over your head, if you give me something to aim at. :laugh:
Writing about these subjects is always challenging, i.e. not being patronisingly simplistic stating the obvious and not being too aloft in the ivory towers of science. ;D
Thanks anyway
Waldschrat
You've done a good job, don't worry!