Hi,
From the outset, it was not going to be 009, a career across the Channel precluded any domestic interest. However, rather than continue with German outline, the purchase of a Minitrains Decauville Progres made the choice of rural France much easier. Although it is a bit 'out there' as French narrow gauge seemed to be all metre gauge but where needs must, why else would Decauville make such a nice loco for 750mm, maybe one ran on the CF Calvados?
Are there other followers of French narrow gauge?
Tim
There was plenty of 600mm NG in France and the Mintrains (and other, earlier stuff) could be used to represent that, also you could use Narrowplanet's stuff and model it in OO9!
Not personally but I am sure there must be... May be you'd be better posting on NGRM forum as there are several people on there who live over in France.
Hi Tim
Yes I have modelled French prototypes
I have several scratchbuilt locos ,coaches and wagons but I don't keep strictly to 3.5mm.
Alan
Charles Insley's St Etienne en Caux? ( https://www.flickr.com/photos/fairlightworks/4510654697 )
Danny
Probably a bit late to the party, but there was at least one 750mm gauge light Secondaire in France, in the South West (Landes)...there were some articles about it in early kiddies of Voie Libre under the title "Le Magic Train Se Cache Dans Les Landes".
There was also some 700mm gauge used in Eastern France; the line at Abreschviller is preserved.
According to the Wikki list of French NG that was the only one, but I've no doubt there would have been some industrial stuff as well. The reason French makers made 750mm locos is that it was widely used elsewhere in the world, and it's close (and usually easily converted to) brothers, 760mm and 2ft 6ins gauges.
Blair I think you will find that the equipment at Landes was german
Certainly decauville supplied equipment is several gauges
Probably was Alan, It was just a general comment that French manufacturers did plenty of 750/760mm stuff as well. France seemed to have been mainly 600/1000mm gauges whereas in the rest of the world 750/760/762mm gauges were far more common for regular lines.
Quote from: Alan Feldon on November 23, 2018, 16:20
Blair I think you will find that the equipment at Landes was german
Certainly decauville supplied equipment is several gauges
According to "30 inch Railways Worldwide" by David Scotney there were two O&K 0-4-0T locos.
That book also lists a short lived and short distance (3km) 750mm gauge street tramway in Lyon, opened in 1893 and converted to metre gauge in 1899.
Dear Tim,
I think you want to think carefully, because to the 00 mind the gauges are not the same as in H0:
As 00 modeller 9mm gauge is close enough to resemble prototype 600mm, in H0 it is 750/760mm; and to model 600mm gauge you'd have to use 6,5mm track in H0.
France had the biggest narrow-gauge station in Europe (metre-gauge), and extensive meter-gauge common carrier networks. It also had substantial 600mm common carriers, in no small part thanks to Decauville.
Decauville initially proposed and manufactured (animal-drawn) 450mm gauge, but subsequently offered a range in 500mm and 600mm. In particular, when steam power came into wider use 450mm proved too small to facilitate engines with reasonable power. Thus, if you plan to model French industrial narrow gauge in H0, 6,5mm is the most common gauge.
The sugar industry, sugar beets were the reason de entre for Decauville, were a strong customer of German industry, where quite a view manufacturers offered a dazzling array of processing equipment, including 'turn-key' factories. Such supplies included German industrial railways, predominantly in 600mm. With the end of WW I 600mm equipment flooded the market, predominantly German (war booty) equipment. To give you a flavour, the allies ordered in the region of 3000 to 4000 600mm engines that ended up in that war, the Germans had on stock at the onset of the war circa 1700 Zwilling plus 2500 Brigadeloks, and production was running during the war. Judging from photos benzol locomotives were not in short supply, so a figure in the region of 6000 to 7000 is not unrealistic; with track mileage to match. So 600mm-gauge ended up everywhere (not just Europe).
You mention the Minitrains Progress: this, like a lot of Minitrains engines, e.g. Brigadelok or NS2, are not H0, they are more 00. The Jouef/ Playcraft Decauville is about S-scale, not even anywhere near 00, and miles away from H0.
So, if the Minitrains Progress is your start point, H0 is not necessarily a good choice.
If 9mm-track is your start point, and you opt for H0, prototype gauges from 700 to 900mm is defining your prototype (there is a NEM standard on this subject). But if you opt for 00, 600mm is within the range.
Food for thought
Waldschrat
But there's always "Rule No.1", Waldschrat! ;)
In regard to using proprietary ready to run locos on an H0 scale French NG layout i.e. a Minitrains Progress and Brigadelok; yes they are over scale for H0, but provided they are not used next to items that are a similar design and true to H0 scale they will look ok. As would the Jouef toastrack coach that is also not a scale model. (One compartment too short and over scale.)
If you do go down this path I would avoid using the Minitrains 2-6-2 Baldwin as that is H0 scale and does look small especially next to the Bachmann 4-6-0 Baldwin that is 00 scale and somewhat larger when it should be the same size. As mentioned the Jouef Decauville is very much over scale and will tower above all the others and look odd.
At the end of the day if you want to build a true H0 scale French NG model you will have to build most of the stock yourself, but in my opinion a layout with compromises in the true scale of the locos, stock and even the track could look very convincing and is well worth building.
Brian Meldon
I agree, but all I tried to highlight is that a move to France or a decision for a Minitrains Progress does not of necessity commits to H0. ::)
And Brian highlights the dilemma: choosing certain models might preclude others, as different scales can create a very odd look! I started off with old Fleischmann, which is 1:82, and once ROCO appeared on the market I had to make a decision, so by now, bare some collectables, the old Fleischmann is sold. Even the difference 1:82 versus 1:87 is too big to ignore, never mind 1:76 or 1:72! You get away with some scenic items, e.g. excavators, cranes, steam tractors, trees, etc., because these come in a substantial bandwidth of sizes, but as Brian already explained, not a good idea when it comes to engines and rolling stock. :laugh:
Slightly off topic, but picking up on another comment:
762mm equals Prussian 3', and is only found on old lines in Germany, and some trade partners of Prussia from that period (Baltic States and Scandinavia mainly). The Upper Silesian industrial network was the most extensive (several hundred km) in that gauge with Prussian State Railway classes running on it, up to 0-10-0, i.e. quite substantial engines.
500mm (for underground mines), 600m (for quarries and military light railways), 750mm (for secondary lines and military in WW II), 900mm (for open cast mines), 1000mm (for trams and secondary lines with transporter equipment) were standardised in various German states; with varying emphasis, e.g. Saxony built only 750mm, with 1 exception, where 1000m was used as that provided better stability for standard gauge on transporter wagons.
Based on these standards Austria standardised 760mm to ensure there was no compatibility with the enemy (Prussia, Saxony, Bavaria). There is a reason it's called the Bosnian gauge.
How many locomotives Decauville actually built is still debated, but it is known that a lot of engines they sold came from Weidknecht, Orenstein & Koppel, and others. Belgium and the German States at the time were 3rd world countries, i.e. this arrangement was very much like us today having our stuff manufactured in China or Korea.
While the standardisation did not eliminate other gauges completely, it lead to cheap mass-produced off-the-shelf equipment, which in turn meant, these standardised gauges were exported worldwide. And, of course, the outcome of WW 1 with thousands of tons of war surplus equipment distributed the standards around the globe as well; - as an inherent feature of the equipment.
Note the irony: the Allies flocking the German war booty distributed the German standards around the globe, thus ensuring that any future orders would be to German standards, i.e. forcing competitors outside Germany to produce to German standards. ;D
Don't forget: not just the gauges were standardised, but everything from engine sizes to axle load rating, track, rail, curve radii, v-tipper sizes, couplings, axles, pillow blocks, etc..
For that reason most of the German rolling stock produced by Bemo identifies any layout as located in Baden-Wuerttemberg as it is modelled after prototypes of that state railway; and the old Liliput rolling stock 'screams' Austria. Only from the mid 20th century did this stock get distributed more widely. ROCO rolling stock is a bid different: the bogie coaches are Austrian, the 4-wheel rolling stock is Middle Germany, and the bogie goods stock is war equipment from WW II, with the respective wide distribution; - and the period restriction! ;D
Thus, a certain choice of gauge is also suggestive for a region, e.g. 1067mm and 620mm 'scream' British Empire, 760mm K. u. K. Empire.
On the other hand ignoring those standards indicates that you haven't done your research properly, e.g. K.P.E.V., and DRG subsequently, specified 60 degree for any industrial line crossing with the state railway. Thus, if you're modelling German railways and you ignore this specification you out yourself as lacking good research. :laugh:
Enough rambling, have a good one
Waldschrat
Quote from: Leprechaun on January 28, 2019, 23:05Based on these standards Austria standardised 760mm to ensure there was no compatibility with the enemy (Prussia, Saxony, Bavaria).
I was in Zell Am See a couple of years ago and was in the depot talking to one of the fitters about Aquarious C which had recently arrived from it's trip around Germany. I asked him if they were going to regauge it and he said no, they didn't need to, the only thing they needed to do is change the couplers. During WW2 the Czech line at Jindrich also hosted a number of Saxon 750mm locos on test, the same applied to them. There would be times when they needed to be regauged the 10mm but it wasn't that often and in wartime I doubt they'd have bothered. Having said that it wouldn't have been a major issue to regauge by that amount anyhow.
Dear Brian,
That's what is called 'bureaucratic blinkers' or 'ffr' (free from reality) in German, I said the Austrians (bureaucrats) decided to standardise 760mm to avoid compatibility, I didn't say that it worked. ;D
Especially, during WW I, when the Austrians desperately needed supplies from Germany it caused some headache. :laugh:
In a lot of cases you can adjust those 10mm by either moving the tyre on the wheel, or using a tyre with a relocated flange.
On that topic, if you see old pictures of the Mecklenburg Pommerschen Schmalspurbahnen (MPSB) you might see goods stock with an St Andrew's cross in a circle stencilled on the body, about 30 to 40 cm diameter. This symbol marked stock with extra wide tyres/ wheels.
The reason behind that is that if you connected your private siding to the MPSB in the same gauge (600mm) you'd be liable to an annual rate (dependant on the length of your private network). If your gauge was different you weren't 'connected, and no rate was due. Thus, a lot of farms, who operated extensive, but ever changing networks (sugar beet again ;D) built their networks in 620mm gauge and acquired stock to 600mm gauge with wider rims; avoiding the expense of reloading at the interchange point.
As the GDR came into being the MPSB was nationalised, as were the farms (into Russian style Kolchoses). With the private owner markings vanishing off the farm stock they introduced the cross-in-circle marking to be able to identify which of the, otherwise often identical goods stock could go onto the former private owner track.
Engines did not operate on those private tracks until much later (and subsequent to re-gauging), those networks were muscle (animal and human) powered, with tractors only appearing post WW II.
A 'lose' fit is not a problem at slow speeds, provided the tyre is wide enough to prevent a drop between the rails; - which most German military narrow gauge equipment had to cater for track widening of the temporary battle lines, and to facilitate extreme gauge widening so that extremely tight radii could be deployed; and Aquarius C is a class HF 210 E 6, i.e. German military ordnance with nominal 210 PS (actually 240 PS), 5 axles, and 6t maximum axle load (28,2t gross + 12,5t tender). It is designed to operate down to 30m radius on 600mm (!!!) or 750/760mm, i.e. the wheels can be moved on the axle, and the brake gear rehung.
Your H0 model you order from Veith in either kit or ready-to-run form, who offers all variants except the ordnance version. Still got to weld up mine. ;D
And I'd venture you can pass it off as 00 as it is BIG for a narrow gauge engine; just to bring us back to the original topic. ;D
Cheers
Waldschrat
(First, my name is not Brian so please don't address me as such, just use "Hobby"!)
You are right that adjusting the tyre would probably do the trick and with the Hf type locos they probably had wide tyres anyhow but as I said they tested the Saxon 750mm locos on the JHMD in 1941 so probably the 10mm wasn't too much of an issue!
Keith Chester in his book The Narrow Gauge Railwys of B-H" covers the gauge choice on pages 21 and 22 and concludes that there was no particular reason for the choice of 760mm but it might well have been influenced by some British 762mm (2ft 6ins) gauge stock used by British Contractors in the Monarchy in the late 1870s "rounded down". Once the choice was made, however, the Common Ministry of War instigated it's use to ensure that they could transfer stock around their Empire without having gauge issues. That they had a seat on the commissions for all railway construction in the Monarchy and had the right of veto probably ensured the universal use of 760mm gauge for the major lines in their Empire. I suspect from that the choice of 750mm by the Germans and Russians (amongst others) to be more co-incidence than any particular desire to make things incompatible. Something we will never know for certain, though.
Quote from: Leprechaun on January 28, 2019, 23:05
.... 1067mm and 620mm 'scream' British Empire ....
1067mm is 3 ft 6 in - Cape Gauge. But 620mm is 24.4 inches. But instead of 620mm, do you perhaps mean 610mm? That is almost exactly 2-foot gauge.
Dear All,
First my apologies to Hobby for mixing up names, a senior moment as they say. :-[
...and to Brian too, of course.
If you look at the 760mm choice in the historical context, and you can read the German documents (yes, he who speaks foreign languages is at an advantage, even when it comes to model railways ;D), you'll find that the choice of 760mm was on purpose to ensure there's no compatibility with the enemy. You're right, the standards, and the industry too, in those days were heavily influenced by the military. But why Keith thinks they adopted some British contractor's gauge is beyond me. For starters I would want to know who the contractor was, and then the equipment he used. 762mm can be found on the Upper Silesian industrial network, but also on the Broeltalbahn in the Siebengebirge near Bonn; neither of which was erected by British contractors, or had any British supplied equipment! In pre-metric days that measure was common and widespread way beyond the Austro-Hungarian sphere of influence! Whether that was coincidence or a result of the influence of the leader of the industrial revolution, i.e. Great Britain, I can not say, but the 762mm-gauge kicked around various Germanic countries way beyond some British contractor, and even before the industrial revolution. :laugh:
It certainly was the other way round as the 750mm were standardised BEFORE the 760mm, i.e. the Austrians had the option to align or misalign, not the Germans or the Russians (who got most of their kit from Germany anyway). And yes, the Prussian military was heavily leaning onto the industry and the standardisation committees to minimise the number of gauges; - it makes requisitioning so much easier. ;D
Of course the military in all German states could and did veto plans for railway lines. But not only that, they also had strategic lines build, and there was/ is a whole gaggle of those all over Germany. One of the most famous is the line across the 'Bridge of Remagen', which wasn't rebuilt after WW II as it had little economic value, only strategic. :laugh:
As we are miles off-topic. but it appears there is an interest in some historic discussions, I offer to open a thread somewhere, where I'll post some historic German documents, e.g. reports on trials for visiting foreign commissions carried out on the Ffestiniog, when it was new; no, I don't expect you to learn German, translation will be provided. :laugh:
Cheers
Waldschrat
Quote from: Leprechaun on January 29, 2019, 14:48
As we are miles off-topic. but it appears there is an interest in some historic discussions, I offer to open a thread somewhere, where I'll post some historic German documents, e.g. reports on trials for visiting foreign commissions carried out on the Ffestiniog, when it was new; no, I don't expect you to learn German, translation will be provided. :laugh:
Cheers
Waldschrat
Yes, please do that
Okidoki, but it won't be tomorrow. I'll have to translate first. ::)