Would somebody care to set out a set of definitive track and wheel standards for 009? We have none actually set out for people to follow. Is it an idea to have a set of 'standard' standards, for instance for finescale 009 and universal 009, in a way similar to those set out by the Gauge O Guild?
Hi Tigger (Who ever you may be!)
This is going to sound a bit negative for a first post on this forum but I think that it would be virtually imposable to have a usable set of universal 009 track standards. Like many others I use N gauge and HOe chassis from many different manufactures and nearly all of them have different
Presumably the N gauge society have a set of standards that allow their members to run stock from different manufacturers, particularly as they sell both track and back to back gauges. Only problem is that I have yet to find them anywhere on the net - wonder what they are (or where they are)?
As to finer standards, there are finer standards for N scale (try looking at Freemo and / or the fiNe standards) which closely match (and may even use) the 2 mm Association standards with the gauge reduced from 9.42 mm to 9 mm (and back to back reduced accordingly). The problem for "fine-scale narrow gauge" is that there is not a 'standard' narrow gauge! Personally I'd go along with the ideas promoted by the late Lynden Emry and the 4 mm Narrow Gauge Study Group which is to use P4 track standards for gauges of 2' 6" and above and 2 mm association for gauges less than 2' 6".
So Hornby Dublo 3 rail standards are a no-no then?
I thought so. :-[
Dave.
Has anybody ever thought about an outside third rail system for 009 electric tramways? I just thought the wiping contact would make for better electrical contact?
Narrow gauge manufacturers such as Roco do quote their standards, which are 7.4 mm back to back, which works out as 1 mm flangeways. These dimensions are close to those used by EM modellers and I find give excellent results. There should also be NEM standards for N gauge, but I have yet to find these.
The problem with 2 mm fine scale standards is that they are designed for standard gauge in 2 mm/ft and may actually be finer than prototype narrow gauge in 4 mm scale. P4 should be fine, but I'm not sure I fancy springing or compensating all my stock to keep the scale flanges on the rails!
Also, as has been said, prototype narrow gauge varies quite a bit, even on the same track gauge. I've been a volunteer at Leighton Buzzard and examining the range of wheel standards in use is an eye opener.
There was (is?) a 4 mm fine scale group who attended ExpoNG for several years. Their standards may have been prototypical, but their display layout made very little progress.
Another point is that narrow gauge modellers are a friendly bunch and like to run their stock on other's layouts. But while there is only one standard gauge, narrow gauge came in many variations. This poses no problems when 9 mm is used to represent gauges from 2 ft to 2 ft 6 ins. But if you go for exact scale then your Festiniog stock won't run on a friend's Corris inspired layout and neither can operate on a model based on the Welshpool and Llanfair.
At the end of the day you make a choice. You can go for exact scale and create a unique layout with matching stock, but be prepared for a lot of scratch building. Or you can use standards that are a comprise, but have the advantage of more commercial support and the ability to run on other layouts.
Richard
Quote from: detheridge on July 11, 2008, 14:25
So Hornby Dublo 3 rail standards are a no-no then?
I thought so. :-[
Dave.
I suppose if there was a prototype line at 4 feet 1 1/2 inches with a center rail pick up... ;D
Quote from: Richard Glover on July 20, 2008, 00:31
There was (is?) a 4 mm fine scale group who attended ExpoNG for several years. Their standards may have been prototypical, but their display layout made very little progress.
Tythering Junction, which was being built by Lynden Emery, founder of the 4 mm Finscale Narrow Gauge Study Group who sadly died earlier this year. It's going to be at this year's Scaleforum in Leatherhead - and his widow is selling it.
Quote from: Richard Glover on July 20, 2008, 00:31
Another point is that narrow gauge modellers are a friendly bunch and like to run their stock on other's layouts. But while there is only one standard gauge, narrow gauge came in many variations. This poses no problems when 9 mm is used to represent gauges from 2 ft to 2 ft 6 ins. But if you go for exact scale then your Festiniog stock won't run on a friend's Corris inspired layout and neither can operate on a model based on the Welshpool and Llanfair.
At the end of the day you make a choice. You can go for exact scale and create a unique layout with matching stock, but be prepared for a lot of scratch building. Or you can use standards that are a comprise, but have the advantage of more commercial support and the ability to run on other layouts.
Richard
My feelings exactly!
Julien.
Track and wheel standard problems extend to the prototype narrow gauge railways as well as for 009.
For example locos from Leighton Buzzard can run on the FR/WHR but FR/WHR locos can not run at Leighton Buzzard!
It is not just about the gauge or even the back to back measurements there are other factors like flange sizes and wheel profiles to consider as well. It is not just the track that would have to be to a standard set of dimensions.
In my opinion the best way to do it in 009 is to make sure that the locos and stock that you have all run perfectly on your own layout(s) and with each other and except that the running of other peoples stock on you layout or your stock on another layouts may be a compromise.
Brian Meldon
That must make it quite fun with a Group layout! If all the members of a group have built locos and stock to run on their own layout, when it comes to a group layout it's probably easier for one person to be in charge of all the rolling stock. I guess he should also be in charge of checking visiting stock before running at exhibitions.
Rather than laying down a set of standards perhaps it would be of more benefit to the majority of 009 modellers if we compiled a list of the various makes of ready to run track and the loco's and wheel sets that will run happily on them. This is something that can be done over a period of time and will take information from members own personal experiences. This will enable members to make there own decisions when purchasing new stock (or track work) for there layout.
Quote from: Snowdon Ranger on August 15, 2008, 18:18
Rather than laying down a set of standards perhaps it would be of more benefit to the majority of 009 modellers if we compiled a list of the various makes of ready to run track and the loco's and wheel sets that will run happily on them. This is something that can be done over a period of time and will take information from members own personal experiences. This will enable members to make there own decisions when purchasing new stock (or track work) for there layout.
Well volunteered that man! ;D
I'd agree, but ultimately it will need someone to collate the information and badger members into handing it over... and speeking from experience getting anyone to volunteer is not to easy ;)
It depends how you interpreted good running. Some modellers are happy to
Quote from: JulienW on August 22, 2008, 15:11
Quote from: Snowdon Ranger on August 15, 2008, 18:18
Rather than laying down a set of standards perhaps it would be of more benefit to the majority of 009 modellers if we compiled a list of the various makes of ready to run track and the loco's and wheel sets that will run happily on them. This is something that can be done over a period of time and will take information from members own personal experiences. This will enable members to make there own decisions when purchasing new stock (or track work) for there layout.
Well volunteered that man! ;D
I'd agree, but ultimately it will need someone to collate the information and badger members into handing it over... and speeking from experience getting anyone to volunteer is not to easy ;)
Looks like I have just landed my self in it there :)
But in all seriousness I would not mind collating the information but I can't spend too much time on it so it would have to be a longish term project.
As for getting members to hand it over, you are all reading this now so lets start there shall we, email me direct with your notes and observations.
djh101@hotmail.co.uk
once I've got enough information I shall start compiling a table or something, the next question is where to upload it
Regards,
Darren.
Along these lines (oh dear, pun alert :P ) there were some photos taken by members placed on the Yahoo web site associated with the old email group that showed comparisons between different manufacturer's track and also different couplings. Not track standards per se, but a useful reference nonetheless. It might be good to recreate that information here if possible.
For those interested, there's a thread on NGRM at the moment covering this subject:
http://ngrm-online.com/forum/index.php?topic=1810.0
I've set up a google docs spreadsheet for people to enter wheel info into, hopefully this will give a set of data that could be used to determine reasonable track standards. Unfortunately I don't have any digital calipers yet, but when I do i'll contribute data from my own stock. If anyone wants to get the ball rolling then here's the spreadsheet link:
http://spreadsheets0.google.com/ccc?key=tL6aC2uFYuhPdjA83CG92zw&hl=en
Thinking about this, are there any other narrow gauges using such a mix of smaller scale standard gauge and ready to run (ie H0e)?
Sorry, I'm a bit new to this having just returned to modelling after a near 50 yr lapse.
I've seen photos of 009 layouts with hand made track. I've even thought of having a go myself. If there are no standards, how do people know what dimensions to make the track and points to?
Frank
The standards are, I suspect "9 mm between the rails and everything else based on Peco points"...
Quote from: JulienW on July 07, 2012, 20:06
The standards are, I suspect "9 mm between the rails and everything else based on Peco points"...