Does anyone know of a kit for the sort of overhead loading chutes seen in this picture of Leighton Buzzard: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/Garsides.jpeg/300px-Garsides.jpeg ? I need this or something like it to load wagons on a micro layout I am thinking of building. Obviously I could attempt to scratchbuild from plasticard but just wondered if there was a kit or similar. So far I have only found the Skaledale one which is a different design and intended for standard gauge wagons.
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Ratio coaling tower might be what you want. Kit No 547 in "OO" and No 247 in "N".
CP
Thank you, looks like pretty much what I need, the basic shape is definitely there. I might go for the N scale one though as I'd mainly be loading Minitrains/Roco skips so the 00 one might look slightly ridiculous. :)
I can modify it but, out of interest, does the model actually have a hole for the coal/gravel to go through?
Try the RTP's from Hornby and Bachmann, both offered hoppers in the past few years and they scrub up quite well with additional detailing.The coal merchant accessory sets from Kibri or Auhagen are very effective dpite being nominally HO, they look good.
Tim
Will consider this in future but I have successfully modified the Ratio N gauge tower to use as a working gravel loader.
Danny
The Knightwing loading hopper, which looks like a modified Heljan hopper (or a cloned rip-off of it), is a working model over the track model; as is the Heljan (I rate the Heljan the better detailed model). You'd have to extend the bin upwards to match the photo though; both are 00 proper, so you might want to reduce heights.
Both use a slide shutter, which is not freely moving, i.e. needs improving. The old Vollmer hopper (modelled after German coaling hopper that has integral weighing scales) has an electrically moved sliding shutter too, while the Faller hopper has a swing shutter, that works marginally better.
For reliable working I would suggest a flap, as found on the Wiad and Vollmer quarry bins, which sit beside the track, i.e. are not what you're looking for.
To mitigate ricochet spill you want the chute to go as close as possible to the edge of the wagon top, even if that means other rolling stock and engines can't pass underneath. There is plenty of youtube footage showing you what to do and what not (just observe how much spill occurs).
Hope this helps, albeit late. ;D
Cheers
Waldschrat
The main problem you will find it the height distance between the outlet of the chuteand the wagon below.
If you have enough height to clear most 009 locos the distance down to the wagon will be too much and the material will just go all over the place.
To stop this you can:
Only use high side wagons.
Only run the lower wagons under the loading hopper, not the loco. (ie back the empty wagons under the loading chute)
Make a retractable extension to the chute outlet.
The N gauge versions will not give the room for 009 locos to pass.
Brian Meldon
Dear Brian,
Yes, these are the common options, but you also can use a very fine fabric sleeve/ tube to direct the dropping material from a chute higher up (like on water cranes), which the engine and bigger wagons can push aside; and, with some clever chute design you can slow down the material speed while directing the flow so minimising the spill.
But I agree with you, the gap between chute and skip or hopper needs to be an absolute minimum, and the fabric tube is best at that as it can be long enough to actually slightly drop into the wagon.
Of course, the N-versions deny passage to engines and most other stock, even if these are N-scale, let alone 00; and at least Fleischmann tells you so for both its discharge stations, the N- as well as the H0-version.
But so does my home-built discharge station for Eggerbahn and ROCO v-skips. That's why I built mine as a gantry that only allows 8 skips between the discharge and the buffer. If it was much more the skips will derail when the 1st of a loaded rake is pushed into the discharge rail, due to the friction of the skip against the lift rail. As the engine has to push the rake up the ramp (so the standard gauge wagons can be loaded) this is quite prototypical. Adds to the shunting fun as the trains from the quarry have to be split for discharging. ;D
If you insist on running the trains through without unhitching the engine, you have 2 options:
1. Make the tipping rails moveable, so they can be retracted away from the track for the engine to pass.
2. Copy on the Arnold design they used at their big coal bunker, where a revolving (around a vertical axis) actuator pushes the skip over (or opens the shutter on the PS3 hoppers); sort of like the chaps who had to flip the skips on the real thing.
Another problem, one the real thing has hardly any problem with, is electrostatic charging. Most modellers forget about that, but plastic (depending on material combinations) can have the granules stick because of electrostatic charging, or make them being repelled by the wagon. A suitable fabric sleeve can alleviate the issue by connecting wagon and chute, thus providing a conductor to allow static charges to discharge. A metal chain connecting chute and wagon is another option.
Hope this helps
Waldschrat
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As ever in these matters, there is also the issue of the material used to represent the mineral being loaded. Besides appearance, the size, angularity (for want of a better term), weight, and flow are significant. A further complication is that something like sand might look right and load easily - but would of course be problematic if it were to get into loco mechanisms and point blades.
CP
John Niblett, who is a recently joined member of the Wessex NG Modellers, but is clearly an experienced modeller, brought a little layout called East Quay to the Dorset NG bash at Colehill on 1 December. This super little layout featured a "performance" where a standard gauge hopper discharged its mineral load into small Roco/Minitrains skips on 009 tracks below it, which were then transported to a jetty at the other end of the layout and via a very simple but clever "invisible" tipping arrangement, the little skips were tipped (a feat in itself for those that are familiar with these tiny things) and the mineral contents were discharged into a barge.
The mineral was represented by brown sugar - which of course can be obtained in varying degrees of coarseness of the sugar crystals and varying degrees of "brownness". I would guess that the ones John used were "medium" in both coarseness and colour!
It worked very well indeed and the "mineral" looked convincing and flowed without problems. Provided the sugar is kept dry, it seems to be an excellent medium for this type of thing.
Mick
Quote from: MickT on December 18, 2018, 11:08
John Niblett, who is a recently joined member of the Wessex NG Modellers, but is clearly an experienced modeller, brought a little layout called East Quay to the Dorset NG bash at Colehill on 1 December. This super little layout featured a "performance" where a standard gauge hopper discharged its mineral load into small Roco/Minitrains skips on 009 tracks below it, which were then transported to a jetty at the other end of the layout and via a very simple but clever "invisible" tipping arrangement, the little skips were tipped (a feat in itself for those that are familiar with these tiny things) and the mineral contents were discharged into a barge.
The mineral was represented by brown sugar - which of course can be obtained in varying degrees of coarseness of the sugar crystals and varying degrees of "brownness". I would guess that the ones John used were "medium" in both coarseness and colour!
It worked very well indeed and the "mineral" looked convincing and flowed without problems. Provided the sugar is kept dry, it seems to be an excellent medium for this type of thing.
Mick
That sounds very interesting. Can I ask how he divided the load from one standard gauge wagon into several skips? On the layout I posted a picture of the wagons are loaded but are unloaded off scene, so don
For bulk cargo materials on the layout there are actually quite limited options, as quite a few possible materials come with problems of their own. Sugar or salt, brown or any other colour, are hygroscopic, and thus become tacky as they collect moisture, as in stop flowing. Both or also corrosive, i.e. not ideal for most metals. They both abrade, so dust is a serious problem. :-\
Any mineral product (sand, salt, etc.) is abrasive and can play havoc if it get's into any mechanism. As the granules abrade themselves all minerals generate dust, so its not necessarily your cargo granules, but the dust from these that will increase your wear and tear, including corrosion (salt etc.); - even though typically that dust is not visible to the naked eye on your layout (but in any quarry ;D)!
As a child I used salt in my PA-containers, and after just 1 month I had green (brass-)rails in a spill area. Note: no visible physical contact between salt and rails! :o
Another material group that is highly abrasive is plant matter, e.g. seeds. It's the cellular structure (the fibre that's good for your diet :laugh:) that is decidedly abrasive.
For example, walnut shells are used for polishing, i.e. hard enough to wear down metal; you can do the same with grass cuttings, takes only slightly longer {just look at your lawnmower blade}.)
Metal pellets would be okay, especially if softer (tin etc.), but are on the heavy side. Again, all options are abrasive, wear and tear and dust problems, but hard materials (steel etc.) more than soft. Magnetic materials are neat for crane loading (with magnets), but may play havoc with other magnetic mechanisms, e.g. electric motors or switch machines. All metals are too heavy for clamshell operation in model form, you need a Hulett loader to successfully pick them up; see:
http://www.daveayers.com/Modeling/Steel_Huletts.htm
(with modelling links)
Plastic granules are one option, and there (have been) are model railway manufacturers who sell them as bulk cargo (Arnold). Tyco uses plastic pellets (balls) in their 'Big Hauler' system, and it works of sorts (no problem with the cargo, but some design flaws in the handling equipment >:()
Fleischmann (GFN) supplies (supplied?) bulk cargo too, there might be more I don't know off. Looking at their product (see pictures) I have a strong suspicion this is just pearl barley. As you can see from the parts number these 2 boxes, never opened, date back to probably the 1960s. I thought, hmm, they look pretty okay, there isn't any dust in the boxes, - which I would have expected to be present after all those years. However, processing the pictures I saw the peeling going on inside, so the dusting problem is there too.
I have:
1. granulated rubber tyres; nice black colour:
1.1 PLUS:
- quite convincingly 'coal'
- good weight (not too heavy, not too light, but to heavy for unit trains, e.g. 50+ waggons ;D)
- no abrasion (if at all polishes surfaces)
- works well on conveyers
- very little dust
- dust not a problem
1.2 MINUS:
- doesn't flow (unless near vertical; ragged sharp-edged granules & sticky rubber)
- electrostatic charge (sticks to certain plastics)
- ricochet (bounces as it is rubber)
- very little penetration with the clamshell grab
- can only be coloured during production/ only limited colour choices
2. granulated cork (Champaign/ wine bottle corks):
2.1 PLUS:
- light weight
- very little abrasion (the exception to the rule above)
- good penetration with the clamshell
- works well on conveyers
- easy to stain to improve colouring
- very little dust
- dust little problem
2.2 MINUS:
- colour not convincing
- poor flow (better than the rubber)
- electrostatic charge (sticks to certain plastics)
3. Pearl barley (not used, see pictures), each granule the size of a human head! ;D
As you can see from my list, what you want to do is part of the answer:
- As already pointed out: for chutes you want globular granules like pearl barley, rather than sharp-edged shapes; the latter don't flow very well.
- If you use a crane with clamshell you need the lightest material possible as otherwise the clamshell won't penetrate. This makes cork or plastic your best options.
- For clamshells globular material works better than ragged shapes.
- If you use conveyers globular/ round materials pose a problem as they roll (back) down the conveyer; so there is a compromise required when combining chutes and conveyers.
- ALL granular materials produce dust when transported. This makes it imperative to regularly clean your bulk cargo and remove the dust, as the dust is not good for your mechanics, including electrical pick-up. If you install a transport chain, e.g. transfer between wagons, conveyers, bins and chutes, it is strongly advisable to have a dust-removal- facility integral to collect the dust before it is spread.
My favourites: plastic granules and cork granules, the latter in use, the former I still struggle with an idea how to produce efficiently; the cheese grater works only with cork. :laugh:
Frequently used, as in popular (see youtube): poppey seeds
A word on clamshells: dropping them onto bulk cargo is like dropping something on water, but they have to sink into the material to work. This is why the old Wiad-clamshell is the only one that works well (as it is heavy), and recent offerings from ROCO and MaeTrix are not really working (as they are to light). More importantly: your bulk cargo material has to be as light as possible to facilitate that sinking, i.e. for clamshells to work.
Any more questions, just ask.
Happy quarrying
Waldschrat
Just the detail picture that shows the granules are shedding material ... ;D
The other question was how to meter a bulk load, e.g. the load of a standard gauge waggon, or from a bin, into a narrow gauge waggon.
Shutters and flaps, the most commonly seen options on model layouts, are not very reliable and accurate as the metering is done by the operator, and hence the quality strongly dependant on operator skill and expertise.
Conveyers, running on a timer, would be the obvious answer, weren't it for the fact that Hornby, Faller and Vollmer conveyers are big enough to run 009 trains on; - way to big for loading 009 bulk carriers. Only Arnold produced a conveyer small enough to meter into anything the size of the ROCO or Jouef Decauville v-tips. Unfortunately this item is long out-of-production, and even in the bay of 2nd hand rare as hens' teeth. :'(
But no need to fret, there are other options:
1. Auger feed (Archimedian screw); make it by winding a (preferably rectangular square-section) wire into a spiral and run it inside a metal tube. It needs to be a very loose fit as otherwise it'll jam. The diameter of the tube should be greater than 4 times your particle size, the spiral at least 2 times particle diameter, otherwise jamming can occur. The length is limited by the stiffness of your wire, you want it to transport away from the motor, which causes it to slightly increase in diameter as it fights the friction. With an adjustable timer very accurate metering can be achieved.
2. Vibrating feeders, they come in 2 versions: throwing and sliding.
2.1 If you place a trough (with 1 end open) on springs you can get it to vibrate with an electric magnet. If the (leaf-) springs are vertical the trough will move forward and backwards along its length. With the floor stepped like tiles on a roof the edge will push the material forward, while the fast action of the solenoid will pull the chute backwards fast enough to break adhesion, i.e. make the trough slide back underneath the material.
2.2 Alternatively, with springs angled at about 40 degree from horizontal, the trough will move diagonally upwards and forward. If the magnet and the springs are strong enough, it will send the material 'flying' forward (just a little bit), while the solenoid pulls the trough back underneath. Somewhat more challenging to build.
Both these options are obviously suitable to make material flow down chutes. Accurate metering is achieved by timer controlled runtime.
The Lionel (0-gauge) milk wagon and loading ramp moves its milk churns using this technology, i.e. it's not just for bulk cargo. ;D
I would be cautious with metering wheels (sort of waterwheel in reverse, each pocket containing one dose) as I don't know a way of making these without the risk of seizure. Likewise shutters ad flaps are prone to jamming. Neither of these provide reliable metering, even with timer control.
Last, not least, a crane with suitably sized clamshell does meter too, but 'hitting' the skip might be a bid hit and miss. :laugh:
Kind Regards
Waldschrat