Last silly question for a while.
Feeling very bewildered by the different opinions on what to lay track on. I've seen recommendations for good old cork, Woodland Scenics track bed, thin (2 or 3mm) foam board, card/mountboard (with particular reference to laying over a foam-built landscape), and even various opinions on laying directly onto the board: only do it if you're using Sundeala, use a slightly flexible glue (like Copydex), or stick it down solidly (eg with epoxy -- which has the benefit that you don't need to do anything special too secure the track at baseboard joins). So, what do you do, and what are your experiences with other ways of doing it?
(Hang on, this is the last silly question: why is it called "sub-base" when it's on top of the basebaord?)
Actually, I am not sure that what you describe is the sub base! :) To me that would be the baseboard top, or trackbed. Nonetheless, I will not argue. The material you lay track on acts in part to depict the ballast shoulder, and like the prototype, introduces some resilience. Despite claims, I do not seriously think it helps reduce noise. So thick card or cork would form a suitable base. As long as the base is slightly resilient, it does not matter whether the track is firmly or flexibly fixed to this base. Ideally, once the track is secured by adhesive, and/or the ballast, any temporary pins can be removed, to eliminate the solid connection to the baseboard. Others may have differing opinions, so I guess we all develop our own ways by experience.
One technique I would like to try is Iain Rice's "floating trackbed". If I recall correctly the track is fixed to a rigid base (thin ply etc) and that "floats" on foam or very low density fiberboard (laminate flooring underlay perhaps?)
I've glued track directly to paper-clad foam board (pizza layout), cork over ply, cork over MDF and "cork replacement black foam" over ply. I'm not sure the underlay has much effect, especially on my lightweight ply baseboards, which drum dreadfully.
I also picked up a roll of black bitumastic model railway underlay, though I've not got round to using it.
My worst effort was to use carpet tape, though it might have been because I used bargain stuff. It "grabbed" dreadfully which prevented repositioning of track. I propped the board up against a wall overnight and by morning some of it had come adrift - but not all of it, which made removing the track difficult. If the track was pressed it stuck down again - for another 24 hours.
I have used several different methods over many years in many scales!
These days my favourite method is Baseboard 6mm ply, covered with the insulation sheets used under Laminate Floor covering, these are purchased from Homebase stores ( or probably any DIY outlet) in a pack of 24 sheets each approx. 24 x 36" these are approx. 3mm thick cut very easily and glued to the ply base with PVA (White) Glue.
The actual track base I use is 1/8" cork which is glued to the above again with PVA, the track itself being laid in the usual manner with temp. track pins and usually contact adhesive,
THis method give extremely quiet running qualities with the ability to actually hear the click of the rolling stock wheels over rail joints ( unless of course the loco has a sound unit fitted!
I assume you mean the fibre board type of under laminate insulation and not the plastic foam type that comes on rolls or concertina packs.
We found that all soft and
A belated reply -
If I were starting again I think I would cover the entire baseboard (or at least the parts where tracks would run) with dense foam camping mat, about 8mm thick (preferably in a dark olive green, probably best obtained from an Army Surplus-type emporium). Why? - because:
- it's dense enough material to give a reasonably firm base for tracklaying and everything else
- it's easy to push track pins through - a standard 15mm pin should reach the baseboard proper below okay, but if not a spot of glue would hold it in place
- if you're wanting sound-deadening, it will do a better job than a thin layer of cork
- all sorts of scenic materials can be applied direct: paints and scatter, or other materials like papier-m
In the past I have used Peco foam underlay although if you are using this with 009 track you will need to remove the sleeper indentations. However it is more important to get a smooth surface and track can be laid directly with plastercloth/paper etc used to smooth the surface, although if you are not careful this can make it more uneven.
Another vote for just fixing the track to the baseboard (or if open top like mine then to the trackbed)... We model railways that didn't usually have a substantial ballast depth so tbh there's no need for a sub base or underlay... Personally I use 6mm ply.
"Sub base"? Probably because it's in addition to the normal base, always called such things "underlay" myself, though the last i used was the old Triang OO foam back in the 60s and never really found it worked!
We have never needed a sub-base because, in our experience, the narrow gauge lines we have modelled have quite thin ballast.
We have never found any need to use heavyweight materials, such as 6mm ply for baseboards. They seem a bit like overkill as no narrow gauge model is heavyweight by any stretch of the imagination and there is nothing that requires heavy load bearing. If you take the layout to exhibitions then the only thing that it will do is kill your back!
Our baseboards have been described in previous threads. They are very light and strong because they consist of 5mm foam board sheet on to which is glued 1/16th inch birch ply sheets. We use Evo-Stik Water Soluble (not the glue sniffing kind!). We really value our bound copies of RM for this job as they keep the whole thing flat and pressed together as it dries. We normally leave it for a couple of days to set and dry out.
The structure underneath is normally built of 2 or 3 inch by 1 inch balsa struts for lightness which are glued directly under this baseboard.
We have never found any problems with this method. If you need to site a point motor then it is very easy to cut out a rectangle of the foam layer and glue in a pad of 3mm timber, e.g. spruce. The same goes for any electronic modules required.
This whole structure is solid and has worked over many layouts now. It is also very light and the struts can be easily cut out to allow wires to be threaded through around the layout underneath.
We have never experienced any problems with noise once the track has been ballasted and, because you are laying on a completely flat surface, there is now problem with poor running as long as you take care laying the track. We glue track down with PVA and have never ever recycled old bits of track or points. It always seems like a bad choice when you are expending so much effort in building a layout to start off with dodgy components but that of course is our choice.
We have also not had any problems with this building technique with regard to warping or other issues. Our layouts have now been going strong for over 11 years in some cases and they have not moved a micron in that time! Our oldest layout is still going strong on the circuit and as long as you do not get anything damp then it is likely to go much longer still and go to many more shows.
We would urge others to give this method a try.
I have tried foamboard, Jim, and didn't get on with it! If you think 6mm ply is heavy you should see what some people use!! ;) 6mm ply gives a strong and solid lightweight baseboard from my experience.
Personally I prefer a little bit of sound, I can then tell if the train is still circulating whilst talking to the punters!
Well Hobby, everyone to their own! If 6mm ply works for you then fine. Our main aim is to build as light as possible as that is all we can manage to get into the car from our trolley.
We came up with the lamination idea because we thought that if a composite floor was OK for Concorde then it was good enough for us.
I also like to have some feedback so that I know things are working, especially as we are using more automation in layouts.
Dear Tom,
Just an observation:
If you look at magnatraction, as Eggerbahn used to call it (powertrack etc.): the T-gauge rails are for magnatraction operation, much more to prototype dimensions for 009 than any other offerings, readily available and what I'd call reasonably priced.
And yes, they are high enough for Romford 009 flanges; other 'Pizzacutter flanges' might need some work.
Just a thought
Waldschrat
To sort of answer my own question, I've tried a variety of options. Baseboard is 12mm ply (there's no requirement for portability, so weight isn't an issue, and it's nicely self-supporting over reasonable gaps). I've laid different sections of track on this by:
- directly pinning
- pinning through cork
- gluing cork to base then sticking track with matt medium (effectively flexible adhesive)
- sitting loose on cork (between fixed sections)
- sitting loose directly on the base
and to be honest I'm regretting all attempts to fix the track, apart from the necessity for points operation. By far the quietest, and apparently most reliable, is the loose track on cork.
Let me start with the sub-base, which, as far as I know is the (load-bearing and freely draining) base on which the gravel-base is spread, which is the base for the track; on the prototype at least. As it's the base sub (=underneath) the base it's called the subbase. Okay, we don't work that way on most model railways, but you still need somewhere to lay your track and spread your gravel. ;D
My father's Gaerklin 0-gauge had purpose made wooden boards (4 pieces each 1m by 2m), which made for very hifi (=high fidelity) operation, as the trains were heavy, the tin track loud (every sleeper a resonance box), and the pick-op skates generous in their sound production. Laying the boards on the floor, rather than their purpose-built easels, reduced sound-leaves impressively.
I got a 2nd hand Fleischmann 'set', which included Moessmer foam bedding, some of which already disintegrated into foliage grumbles; gauging by the oldest engine that stuff was around 15 years old. On the boards the foam made a huge difference, even though the nails would transmit some sound. Set up in the basement (with significant temperature and humidity changes summer - winter, a concern was the thermal expansion of the track versus the humidity expansion of the wood (at 6m longest straight run).
As you mention baseboard joints I suspect you're talking handier sizes, but I would still make sure thermal or humidity changes do not induce forces in your assembly. This could well be the reason for the failing glue-joints mentioned.
At that size, and with not too extreme diurnal and seasonal cycling, PVA-glue on a wood or cork-base works for most. However, this is not strong enough at baseboard joints, where one of the methods discussed in this forum elsewhere should be used.
Hope this helps
Waldschrat
A bit late for my reply.
I should point out that we onbly use 1/4 (6mm) plywood for the trackbed. This is cut to the shape of the track bed and it does not cover over the entire layout area.
The trackbed is mounted on a 2x1 (planned so a bit smaller) wooden framework.
Both the trackbed and the frame work is worked out before we start building depending on the track plan we want.
The scenic areas between are made using polystyreen.
Uning this method results in a very solid yet relitivly light baseboard construction.
All the track is pinned direct to the 1/4 ply with the curves pre-bent and all sleepers pre-drilled for the pins. The point motors are secured with wood screws, but again are all adjustable.
The pins we use are short ones that do not quite go all the way through the 1/4 ply so no pins to sctratch yourself on the underside. These were previously available from peco, but sadly they no longer make them. The screws are also short so they do not go all the way through.
We do not have any warping issues, but then the baseborad joints are all adjustable and the layouts have always been stored in a heated area.
This way of doing things is 'old school' but it works for us.
That said I have not built a new layout for many years now!
Brian Meldon