I note that the latest 009 news claims that roco have cancelled the double fairlie project (presumably from good sources). I await news from roco, but feel it's ridiculous that they state that pre-orders were too low, when they have yet to tell the trade what engine they will be modelling, or indeed some idea of price. The project hardly got any press either (possibly because of the same two points - prototype and price) - which was hardly likely to drum up sales from those on the margins of the scale/who just want one for their showcase etc!
I had heard that Liv Thompson was the most likely - a crazy choice given that the engine is permanently sat in the NRM!
dear oh dear roco.
I'd agree with Colin that it's unfortunate and disappointing that Roco have chosen to cancel the Fairlie project, but I don't think it's too surprising, especially given the lack of evidence of development/prototype models and the vagueness over the exact prototype.
Presumably the reference to the low level of pre-orders referred to those from traders, since I'm not aware that reservations were ever offered to the public (correct me if I'm wrong). If this is the case, we should bear in mind that there are very few (probably less than ten?) specialist narrow gauge retailers in the UK, and I doubt that many would be prepared to put their hands in their pockets for a batch of Fairlies at upwards of
If this is true then yes it is sad, but not a total suprise. The
:( Had one on order at The Signal Box. Just had phone call confirming Cancellation.
I think Roco went for something too big and location-specific. A Quarry Hunslet would IMO have been a better bet as they have operated on a number of different railways over the years (and anyone modelling Dinorwic could put a bulk order in!). Had that been available at a similar price (or maybe up to 50% more) than their continental-outline locos of equivalent size, I think they'd have had a better chance of success.
Richard
I agree, a quarry Hunslet would have been a better choice, or maybe one of the WWI locos, such as a Baldwin 4-6-0. Nice as a Farlie would have been, there are already two kit versions that I can think of off the bat.
Who knows, they could well be watching the interweb, to see how gauge people's reactions to the announcements, before fully committing, so the Farlie was just to attract attention and really get people talking.
I hope that someone does start looking into British RTR seriously, broad a church as it is, because I'm sure, that if the model, and particularly the chassis is good, there will be sales!
J
I can see the point, but can't help but think that to really make money they would need an iconic prototype that would sit in the non-modeller's home too - in a showcase, on the mantelpiece etc - a double fairlie is iconic and fits that...perhaps a quarry hunslet doesn't... But then with the number of liveries a quarry hunslet could come in, it could be an easy one...and also provide a nice chassis for other projects!
Quote from: rhydddu009 on July 27, 2009, 11:34
I can see the point, but can't help but think that to really make money they would need an iconic prototype that would sit in the non-modeller's home too - in a showcase, on the mantelpiece etc - a double fairlie is iconic and fits that...perhaps a quarry hunslet doesn't... But then with the number of liveries a quarry hunslet could come in, it could be an easy one...and also provide a nice chassis for other projects!
yeah, but you are just slighty biased though....... :laugh:
wot the FfR/RhE mafia haven't got to you yet...
hey don't get me wrong TR No.1 is iconic too, as are the Vale of Rheidol engines, the L+B manning wardles etc - it's just that a double engine is very unusual indeed and thus might (I suspect) command a greater following from non NG people than other prototypes...
Don't get me wrong, I like the double fairlies as much as the next photographer, after all there's not many locos that get 'sun on the front' no matter which way they are running ;D
indeed..and when the Earl gets her traditional outline tanks (fabricated already, just need an excuse to install them), there will be no reason not to like double engines anymore...
I like the Earl as it is, ok it's square, boxy, and angular but it also has a certain modern feel to to it, when you see the Earl along side one of his older brothers you can see the progress.
Earl was built as a new steam engine to carry out a task that it has done well for many years, it was never intended to be a replica.
Earl was built at a time when the FR had a need for a new cost effective reliable and powerfull steam loco and the Earl is what they came up with, this is what real railways do, it's called modernisation, but it is also a little piece of history in it's own right.
Darren.
I agree, I do like the Farlies, but Earl was the first one I ever rode behind, and when I was young, I always thought it looked tidier than the others. I think it's good that they do have similar, but different locos on the line. Obviously the Farlies are isymbolic of the line, especially the original outline ones, but Earl almost acts as a reminder of the achievements of the late 70s, early 80s preservationists of the line, and that it isn't just the modern era that can build a complete loco from the rails up.
RTR L&B locos could also be a sensible idea, as they could appeal to the Southern Railway modeller too, either on the back of a flat wagon returning from a works visit, or meeting with service trains at Barnstaple Town.
J
yes I'd buy a RTR Lew/Exe/Taw/Yeo/Lyd
Hell, who wouldn't! The fun and games I have had to make mine work properly!
JdF
Quote from: rhydddu009 on July 28, 2009, 09:32
yes I'd buy a RTR Lew/Exe/Taw/Yeo/Lyd
Me too, i always thought the L&B was the prime candidate for an RTR loco in 009... Have a rethink Roco ;)
Yes, an L&B locomotive would be an attractive subject and I'm sure many 009ers would buy one. But remember that there aren't THAT many 009ers and I still think that a large proportion of their sales of the planned Fairlie would have been "trophy" models, i.e. to people who'd seen or travelled behind one and wanted a model for the mantlepiece.
As far as I'm aware all of Roco's current non-freelance lineup is composed of locomotives which currently exist on operating railways and could therefore benefit from such trade - OK, you could argue that 'Lyd" will give them this opportunity and I suppose that may yet happen. But we have to accept that the UK 009 market is - and always will be - very small, probably too small to support anything much in the way of RTR. It's always been this way, even back to the rabbit layout heyday of the 70s. Who now remembers Liliput announcing their W&LLR Beyer Peacock 0-6-0T and then cancelling it? About 1972, I think.
Regards,
Chris
Hello
John Wooden here doing my first ever post. I am the shops manager at the FR and was delighted to get wind of the ROCO plans but they never actually contacted us directly. We have an account with Fleischmann and therefore ROCO and so I made it clear that we would sell many units of the alleged model and would be very happy to help with plans/pictures, trains to launch the model etc. But they never seemed very interested so how they think they know what the demand would be I can't imagine. That said however, I suspect that as everyone has said they would need to sell many units more than we could sell to make it worth their while. Shame though as they even mentioned the idea of rolling stock to suit if it sold well... RTR bow siders anyone? I will continue to pester them just in case but I think not holding the breath would be sensible.
Hi John and welcome... please do pester them...I have been by email too. It seems very odd indeed that they announce this model and then don't follow through without proper market testing/research. Colin
Roco just does not seem to get their act right. One would have thought that approaching the FR would have been the first port of call with probably an enormous potential for sales. Rather than go to the 'horse's mouth' (beg your pardon John) they seem to have gone to the horse's backside!
JdF
I don't think that they were ever serious. We were all set to become ROCO dealers so that we could get a good price which meant we would promise to take a large quantity from them but interest from them was minimal.
Never mind. I wanted one...
John
This topic has gone dead but I have only just perused the contributions; cant understand why anybody would want to waste hundreds of pounds on Roco anyway. Although the Engerths look great are they worth the money. Only the little 0-6-0 ever interested me but have honestly never found one that runs as well as a Bachmann MDT Plymouth especially when it has been fettled properly
Peter Smith
Hi Peter
The latest Roco 0-6-0 steam loco has been fitted with the Roco BR80 N gauge chassis for the last couple of years now that uses the coupling rods to drive the outer wheels and has additional valve gear. Although the locos could do with more weight these are very good chassis, they run smoothly at slow speed and in my experience they do not ware out. I have used my BR80 N gauge chassis extensively over the past 15 years, so much so I have worn the motor brushes out on two of them, with new brushes they still run like new.
Here is a photo of the Roco BR80 N gauge chassis: (The latest ones have anodised wheels and rods.)
(https://forum.009society.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi663.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu358%2FM-e-l-l-o-w%2FRocoBR80Chassis.jpg&hash=ec5f9b4e5169d2eace3a8a66792465d08f0ae382)
The previous Roco chassis in the HOe steam loco and the one still used in the diesel has a simala spring dampened drive system, 5 pole motor and reduction gearing however it has gears down one side of the chassis. These also run very well when new but unfortunately as a result of the gearing down one side the axel slots ware after a while in the chassis block causing the wheel sets to twist causing poor running. These locos also need extra weight.
Here is a photo of the older 1980 to 2007 Roco steam loco chassis:(later models had anodised wheels and rods)
(https://forum.009society.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi663.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu358%2FM-e-l-l-o-w%2FRoco1980Chassis.jpg&hash=b0b7d0f45ff363dc908ddd1cc7b6fdcbc38f3051)
The five pole motors were introduced in about 1990 prior to that they were only three pole. The spring drive chassis started production in about 1980 and prior to that an Atlas chassis was used that are of poor quality and ware out quickly.
Although I have thinned out my fleet of Roco steam locos recently I still have several in use with both the 1980
Re-reading this thread and seeing references to "the Earl" my thoughts turned to the Welshpool & Llanfair Railway, and the Earl and Countess, now both restored, would make a much better sales target for Roco for the following reasons:-
1) Perfect scale:gauge combo for HOe and they are big locos by UK standards;
2) Already running with Zillertal stock;
3) Simple outside frame 0-6-0 chassis; and
4) Can be run with other locos of european origin.
You could even re-visit Calthrop's concept and use modern transporters as the loading gauge is big enough.
Paul
Hi Paul
It may surprise you to know that Liliput gave serious consideration to producing an r-t-r version of the Welshpool locos back in the 1970
Brian
your piece on Roco locos is really interesting and most welcome
I have not tried the steam locos yet but will now think about it with your comments in mind
The thing that irritates me most about the little diesels-I have had new and second-hand is the tendency to move fractionally on starting in either direction and then stop. The slightest prod gets them going again. This indicates to me electrical pick-up is ok but gear mesh is suspect. Is that a symptom of the design aspect you were talking about?
I keep my track very clean and the wheels although clean track keeps the wheels ok for some time and lay track carefully. I also gently file frog rails as I find Peco 009 point clearances a bit tight
I like quiet smooth running and find Farish old and new pretty poor. I tend to use US N scale chassis and find these a good bet especially Atlas
As my experience grows I hope to share it with other members
Blackstone Models of US narrow gauge prototypes in HOn3 are showing what can be achieved at Roco prices but US ng is by and large such a well-trodden path of Rio Grande and "friends" I want if possible to plough a different furrow
Thanks again for your response
Peter Smith
Hi Peter
The situation with the worn Roco 1980 onwards chassis is that when the power is first applied and the slack is taken up in the drive train and if the ware is significant the centre wheels can actually lift the outside ones off the track and as there are no pickups on the centre wheels the loco stops. Giving it a push will allow the rear wheels to lift slightly and re-make contact with the rail.
You should only find this fault with a worn loco, new chassis are ok for some time.
There is a work round I that the keeper plate on the underside can be filled down so as it pushes the axels further in to the chassis block and therefore reduces the movement. However as the ware on the axel slots is never the same for each axel or the intermediate gears this can be a very delicate and time consuming task.
Brian Meldon
I have just started to model in 009 and am still on a steep learning curve. However, I enjoy operating and require locos that will perform well out of the box, as it were. I have no luck if I try to 'fettle' loco chassis. In view of that I have bought two of the Roco HOe 0-6-0 Tender Tank locos and, to be fair, they are performing faultlessy on my newly laid track.
No problems, so far, and hopefully they will continue to run as well as they currently are doing and, with my limited knowledge of Roco products, I feel sure they will.
I am modelling a fictitous railway in North Yorkshire and will live happily with the fact that the locos are 'foreign'
Sorry about that, I must have hit the send button before I had finished. I can alter the history of my line to cover their purchase, after all, it's my railway etc:-)
Regards,
Dave
Welcome Dave, I hope you have a long and enjoyable hobby with 009, now that you have jumped into the pool!
The Roco locos that you have purchased have had some mixed reviews, some members who are on this forum reporting issues regarding reliability and longevity of the running gear, whilst some others have reported that they have found them satisfying. It seems that they are fine for "normal" usage but tend to show design faults if subjected to continuous hard work on exhibition layouts. I'm sure some of those who have experienced both the good and bad points may contribute their views.
In the meantime, if you are feeling brave, having shelled out quite a lot I expect to get 2 of these locos, they can relatively simply be "anglicised" and upgraded from 3
Beaten me to it, Mick. I was going to post a shot or two of my conversions ;)
It's a simple thing to do, you don't need to be that brave as the only physical modifications i did were to file off the rather european looking smokebox door and replace with a thinned down one from an airfix pug it, glue on a new chimney from a Stenning L&B kit, and construct the new cab out of whitemetal bits and bobs and plasticard. The cab is removable, so bravery is only required when taking the file to the smokebox. You could even make the chimney removable if you wanted to return the loco to it's original condition at some point.
One of mine has been great, no wear and tear and runs well. The other however (and Chris's) both have an issue where the valve gear binds occasionally stopping the loco in it's tracks. I think i've found a work around by loosening the front screw on the keeper plate which allows a little flexibility for things to slop around a little and it seems to happen less frequently now.
Hi Dave
To add to what has already been said, the outside frame Roco 0-6-0 locos do indeed perform well when new, and my ones are still very good after a couple of years use. The Tillig HOe steam locos also work well, straight out of the box and would appear to last a long time as well, they retail for about
Many thanks for the advice given and it is all duly noted. As to when I will pluck up the courage to 'alter' the Roco locos it is difficult to say:-)
I enjoy wagaon and coach kit building but, as I said before, tinkering with locos is usually the kiss of death.
I am testing the locos and stock that I have as I lay the track and have already been grateful for comments on this group about the Peco points. I have opened the clearances out slightly and all now runs well.
I will never exhibit so my locos won't get the amount of use that a lot obviously do. Hopefully that will mean that the problems that some of you have will a good many years off for me.
I am enjoying the change and have found the group to be friendly and helpful. Many thanks.
Regards,
Dave
Have read recent contributions with interest and again thank Brian Meldon for his helpful comments and advice
Peter Smith
Many 009 modellers do not run their locos over any distance and for short periods only. I can attest that the 4 Roco outside frame chassis I have used were inop within a few hours of running with only short term fixes available. The Bachmann class 08 chassis is far far better and half the price too. The Roco valve gear fits easily to it and these chassis, so far, on my layout have performed many many hours of running.
By far the best outside frame chassis available, (at a price) is the Bemo HOe Diesel Loco Class VL3. It is the only chassis one can describe as 'properly engineered and all wheels are driven, a most important feature for long life.
JdF
John,
I thought you had also experienced problems with brass valve gear on the 08?
Has this developed into a bigger problem, have you fitted roco stuff as a replacement?
Indeed I did suffer from excessive wear when using brass valve gear on class 08 chassis. River Brue now has new chassis with Roco valve gear and runs perfectly. If I was to fit brass gear, I would in future lash out and use the Bemo chassis.
JdF
Quote from: pilotfriend on May 04, 2010, 08:37
Indeed I did suffer from excessive wear when using brass valve gear on class 08 chassis. River Brue now has new chassis with Roco valve gear and runs perfectly. If I was to fit brass gear, I would in future lash out and use the Bemo chassis.
JdF
As a possibly slightly irrelevant distraction ( ???), Martin Radcliffe, who brought that superb Leek & Manifold set to NG Midlands last Saturday, informed me that he had used the Bemo 0-6-0 diesel chassis as the basis of both of the superdetailed Kitson locos in the set. I'll include a couple of photos of the set in my Fotopic report of the day as soon as I can get it up to the top of a rather big and tedious non-modelling related essential tasklist this week!
Mick
Sounds interesting Mick, I look forward to seeing them! :)
Thanks for the response, John, useful to know.
Cost per loco about
Indeed. The coupling rods are in this case more cosmetic than working so a great deal less stress.
JdF
The Bemo 0-6-0 diesel has indeed got gears that drive each axel and also an additional fly crank that is rod driven.
These chassis are not perfect as the motor mountings are at the far end of the motor to the worm drive; this can make the motors noisy but can be addressed by securing the front end of the motor with glue. I have had one of these locos for about five years now and it was second hand when I got it. It is one of the locos that sees the most use on the layout and it still runs very well, but is not the best running loco as it has no fly wheel.
Here is a photo of the Bemo