A Stronach-Dutton tractor in 009
(https://forum.009society.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhnorwood.co.uk%2Ffiles%2Fimages%2Frail%2Fmsd07.jpg&hash=c4f4061ef36e0e6eac5e5d0020ebcfefbb3f77d2)
This all started when someone (David788) on the ngrm-online forum posted a link to a film held by the British Film Institute, showing the remarkable Stronach-Dutton Road-rail system in action both abroad and at the British Empire Exhibition at Wembley in 1924.
Well, it certainly caught my imagination and I spent some months thinking about whether I could do something in 4mm scale. So I went on the look-out for suitable 4mm scale steam wagons; ideally die-cast for weight. I found these very hard to come by, so eventually bought an Oxford Diecast Fowler B6 road locomotive (ref 76FOW001) from Hattons.
Next, of course, was to find a suitable motor and gearbox for the tractor. This was a big issue as there is not much space in the body and of course the wheels are much bigger than loco wheels. I had a chat with Garry Whiting at the East Midlands Member's day and he suggested that perhaps one of those tiny Japanese-made chassis would fit, but of course they have low-voltage motors, and might not have enough torque to turn the wheels. Then a bit of inspiration struck; the Tomytec HM-01 4-wheel motor "bogie" is small, and has a (stated) 12V motor
Well done Hugh, absolutely brilliant!
Garry
Agreed - a very tidy job, and something different.
David.
brilliant, i watched the footage from your link. i was mesmorised. i never even knew these existed. The model you've made really captures the essence of the prototype, well done. Paul.
Amazing, Hugh. Simply amazing. Unfortunately the website would not allow me to watch the video, since I'm in the US.
Jeff S.
One of the weirdest creations of engineering! The originals look pretty dangerous when you see how they tilted in the bends. Thanks for sharing and good luck with the build.
Will you prepare a special piece of track for your monster (dirt path left and right of the track)?
An absolutely fascinating piece of footage, thank you for bringing this to our attention. Also an excellent model.
This opens up an entirely new world for NG modellers.
Keith
It has gone back into the workshop for the time being; I want to see if I can make it more controllable. I tried making a video of it travelling along the dockside on Angst-Lesspork and, to be honest, if you blinked you missed it! I remain convinced it's a viable model.
Very neatly done, and a very interesting idea. Am I right to assume that the prototype system was built to allow steeper gradients than a conventional railway?
Something like that - it was thought that the system would give the benefits of rubber on ground for traction, with the low rolling resistance of metal on rails (for the wagons etc), but as someone remarked somewhere, it seems to have combined the disadvantages of both systems instead!
(Plus, lighter weight rail, lower cost of construction etc. etc.)
I was thinking it looks a little bit like a Harry Worth (you need to be British and of a certain age to get that reference*) version of the Patalia State monorail.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patiala_State_Monorail_Trainways (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patiala_State_Monorail_Trainways)
http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/patiala/patiala.htm (http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/patiala/patiala.htm)
I guess the advantage of the road-rail tractor is you still have a usable traction engine and railway if it doesn't work!
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIPihrhzr-U
I recall that there was an article in the NEWS many moons ago from someone who made a model of the Patalia monorail; I think it may have been during my tenure as editor...
Yes indeed. That I learned about the beast.
oops edit - That is where I learned about the beast.
Brief update: I have fitted a new motor and gearbox; first impression is that it is much better behaved. I need to get the layout up to try it out properly. I shall even try to video it...
At last. Rare sighting of a Stronach-Dutton tractor on the dockside in Angst...
https://youtu.be/q8Ujppxw5jU (https://youtu.be/q8Ujppxw5jU)
Is Foul Ol' Ron driving?
Jeff S.
The new motor and gearbox are from Rod Allcock; he very kindly let me have it to try out. It has a 12V Mashima motor with a reduction just over 50:1. I think the Tomytec chassis was about 13:1, so it's much better, but still not enough for what you might call controlled motion. I would guess that increasing the reduction ratio further would also increase the torque? It is a bit touchy about starting off.
It looks very good in the video, but I see your point - the benefit of all the gearing is being undone by the big driving wheels. It's almost as if you need something like the belt drive as used on Mamod traction engines, or friction wheel rim drive as used in some Nigel Lawton drives.
Radio control servos have significant gear reduction, but I'm not sure any are small enough to fit. On second thoughts (after a quick check), possibly small enough with the case and electronics stripped out, but arranging the drive to the wheels would be a real challenge:
http://www.hobbyking.co.uk/hobbyking/store/__95774__HobbyKing_8482_HK_5320S_Ultra_Micro_Digital_Servo_0_075kg_0_05sec_1_7g.html (http://www.hobbyking.co.uk/hobbyking/store/__95774__HobbyKing_8482_HK_5320S_Ultra_Micro_Digital_Servo_0_075kg_0_05sec_1_7g.html)
A rather evil thought occurred to me. Why not just replace the front bogie with a Portram chassis? (Runs for cover.)
That's a good point.
I almost got there. It crossed my mind that if it was a steamroller a small pair of driven railway wheels could be hidden between the large solid (free-wheeling) rear wheels, but why anyone would want a road-rail steam roller I don't know. Perhaps it is something B.S Johnson would come up with?
As always, Angst Lesspork continues to fascinate!
You could always drive the rail wheels as well so that it would be more controllable, but without losing the benefit of the road drive on gradients. It depends whether you are going to model the steep gradients of the prototype system.
Quote from: danny on August 21, 2016, 19:13
You could always drive the rail wheels as well so that it would be more controllable, but without losing the benefit of the road drive on gradients. It depends whether you are going to model the steep gradients of the prototype system.
The problem with that would be getting the two to go at the same speed!
I have got a motor/gearbox from a Polish firm, that has a 324:1 reduction. The trouble is the final gear on the axle is only a few millimetres in diameter, and I'm worried that the gear will just come unstuck, or shred itself....
It was only ever an exercise in proving a point (which it has done), but I'd like to get something that works a bit better...
Quote from: hughn on August 21, 2016, 20:42
Quote from: danny on August 21, 2016, 19:13
You could always drive the rail wheels as well so that it would be more controllable, but without losing the benefit of the road drive on gradients. It depends whether you are going to model the steep gradients of the prototype system.
The problem with that would be getting the two to go at the same speed!
A bit like locos with separate motor bogies or double heading.
Some news in the offing.....
Nice work, Hugh.
Jeff S.
Here we are: the Mk2 Roadrail tractor. This is powered by a Portram bogie under the front wheels (and like the real thing, it can be demounted - I have a modified showman's that can be hitched on as well...)
https://youtu.be/IxoLdKmvtTY (https://youtu.be/IxoLdKmvtTY)
This was remarkably easy to do. Firstly I had to source a Kato Portram tram, then take it to pieces (quite a miracle of tiny engineering). This left me with two motorised chassis.
(https://forum.009society.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhnorwood.co.uk%2Ffiles%2Fimages%2Frail%2Fmsd10.jpg&hash=e87b27cad448109734ef9a3069fbd4d7daf9b428)
As you can see from the photo, I modified one by sticking on a pivot and support made from styrene strip. The motor leads also hav eto be soldered to the pickups.
Converting the road tractor was simply done by drilling a hole up into the front wheels support, then sticking in a short length of stiff wire. I added a short piece of styrene to bear onto the bogie.
(https://forum.009society.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhnorwood.co.uk%2Ffiles%2Fimages%2Frail%2Fmsd11.jpg&hash=f826c9dbde58cbfdd541849546b9eb909858aadf)
And here it is in the test track. I have added some sideframes to hide the wheels. The bogie just needs a coat of matt black now.
(https://forum.009society.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhnorwood.co.uk%2Ffiles%2Fimages%2Frail%2Fmsd12.jpg&hash=fd9c28018caaee4fe9a07c790eff3fa0c708fe7a)
A very simple conversion. Well done.
Jeff S.
Really does need a 150 ohm (or bigger) dropper resistor if you haven't already fitted one.
I have a low voltage controller :)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4746/39622700265_6cb982be4d_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/23njGmz)Stronach-Dutton Road-rail Tractor (https://flic.kr/p/23njGmz) by H Norwood (https://www.flickr.com/photos/hnorwood/), on Flickr
The Stronach-Dutton system has remained on the back-burner for moths, as I was looking for a better model to try out the system on. Fortunately, I acquired a Keil Kraft of the 1924 Atkinson
That looks very nice. Does this mean you are going back to the original concept of driving the road wheels rather than the Portram bogie?
Danny
Very nicely done, Hugh. I'm looking forward to see what you come up with next.
Jeff S.
Just a thought - could anything from (for example) the Faller car system be converted for this?
Danny
That looks really good, and some nifty lateral thinking!
Quote from: danny on February 27, 2018, 18:34
That looks very nice. Does this mean you are going back to the original concept of driving the road wheels rather than the Portram bogie?
Danny
Indeed.
A brief update.... it has crew and a load (to add weight)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4789/40588588382_f9dff708f4_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/24QF8eY)Stronach-Dutton Road-rail Tractor (https://flic.kr/p/24QF8eY) by H Norwood (https://www.flickr.com/photos/hnorwood/), on Flickr
Looking good. Are you planning to haul any stock behind it?
Danny
In a similar vein there's this: http://www.tramz.com/br/rj/vj/vj.html
Danny
That really is weird. But... it works
I do not know how much it would be capable of pulling - and of course it would probably have to do it like the prototype did; using a drawbar connected to the rail-bogie and going under the chassis, supported by a castor near the far end to prevent it dragging on the ground!
Quote from: hughn on March 05, 2018, 20:18
That really is weird. But... it works
I'm not too sure what purpose the rail serves on that other than as guidance. It doesn't seem to be particularly weight bearing and when a trailer is hauled it's just a normal road trailer, removing the reasons why the Stronach-Dutton system uses rails. It is petrol powered so it's not a power rail. Have you used the model on any very steep gradients as seen on the prototype?
Danny
Quote from: danny on March 05, 2018, 14:46
In a similar vein there's this: http://www.tramz.com/br/rj/vj/vj.html
Danny
Yes, really quite bonkers, and the centre rail hardly seems necessary. That guy Allen Morrison seems to know everything there is to know about trams in Brazil! Many parts of the city are/were inaccessible by road, especially the favelas high up on the hillsides (though I suspect that Santa Teresa is a bit more upmarket), but the city have built a number of cable cars to help residents access the main parts of the city and so help integrate the favelas into the city. These cable cars are free for residents to use, but still cheap for tourists, and give amazing views over the city's rooftops.
David.
P.S. Are those gas cylinders on the roof, or beer kegs?
Quote from: clayliner on March 08, 2018, 20:09
P.S. Are those gas cylinders on the roof, or beer kegs?
I'm not too sure what they are or what they're for and I don't want to take the thread too far off topic. It seems to have been rebuilt into a slightly weirder form: http://photos.wikimapia.org/p/00/05/91/25/30_big.jpg
Apparently it does have 24 hour service though! Quite tempted to do a model but I'd probably need a larger scale to make it work.
Danny
Here's a short video of the tractor at the York Model Railway Show last weekend
https://youtu.be/YO4Q0Q8AVT8 (https://youtu.be/YO4Q0Q8AVT8)