Several locos have come into the 009 Sales for valuation and there is a bit of a mystery about their provenance. Can anyone help to identify them please? They all appear to be at least 1960's vintage, possibly 1950's.
I'll attach photos of each of the models in sequential posts to avoid overloading the system.
Mick
1st up is a very nice 00n3 12mm gauge Cavan & Leitrim 4-4-0T. It appears to be made of brass and is possibly scratch built.
Next is an American loco which I seem to remember was marketted as a "Ken Kidder" in the late 1950's I think - I remember seeing photos of it in Richard Kohnstram's (Riko) adverts. Can anyone add flesh to my meagre information? I think this is 12mm gauge but also there is a bell ringing that it was sold as an HOn3 loco, so that would make the original 10.5mm gauge even if this one isn't - don't have it to hand so can't confirm!
AMENDMENT - Grateful to Jeff and Rod for further details, and Clayliner (David) for accurate measurement! It is 10.5mm gauge therefore HOn3, is a Ken Kidder "Mudhen" and was imported into UK by John Underhill.
This one is almost certainly scratchbuilt. 12mm gauge, 00n3 Not sure of the motor, think it may be a K's and the cab is filled with an enormous flywheel.
Next is a rather crude, but somehow charming 0-6-0T - again almost certainly scratchbuilt in brass. Gauge confirmed by Clayliner as 10.5mm.
And finally a partly dismantled gear driven loco. I hesitate to guess if it supposed to be a Shay or a Climax as there are no cylinders etc to be seen. I'm afraid I can't say whether it is 10.5 or 12mm gauge. The main clue to identifying its background is probably the enormous motor, which I am guessing is a Pittman.
Addendum: Thanks to Jeff for the suggestion that it may be a Class A Climax or a Dunkirk, further information to follow, and to Clayliner for measuring the loco up and confirming that it is actually 9mm gauge. Additionally, thanks to Rod whose knowledge far exceeds my own, who believes the chunky motor is a Lindsay, rather than my own guess above.
The Ken Kidder loco is a 'Mudhen'. They were sold in this country by John Underhill at 84/- and I believe they were sold in the States under various other names in both H0 and H0n3. I think the motor in the geared loco is a Lindsay, the same as used in the Kemtron Stubbys.
Mick,
I believe that Loco #2 is an HOn3 Ken Kidder Plantation Loco. There was also an HO standard gauge version. Here's a Youtube video of one running.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7aJ-tHTZQ4
Loco #5 could be a Class A Climax. The prototypes did not have external cylinders. However, the cab does not seem to be of the correct time period. It might also be a model of a Dunkirk Locomotive. These also had cylinders inside the cab. I will try to do some checking on this one.
Jeff S.
Just to clarify, we got the ruler out this morning and the yellow and red locos are 12mm gauge, the black and green ones are 10.5mm and the last one is 9mm (hope I've remembered that correctly!)
David.
Well Mick
they are not any of mine -wrong colour!
fascinating collection though-i do remember the mud hen and tried to purchase one at one stage ,although looking at the underside i don't know how i would have done a conversion!
Quote from: Alan Feldon on June 04, 2016, 08:51
Well Mick
they are not any of mine -wrong colour!
fascinating collection though-i do remember the mud hen and tried to purchase one at one stage ,although looking at the underside i don't know how i would have done a conversion!
Looks like there's room to push the wheels in to 9mm gauge, but you'd have to pull the whole thing apart!
Mal
Regaugeing UPWARDS is not too difficult. Strangely, the wheels are threaded onto the axles so only need unscrewing. However, since the axles are shouldered, narrowing the gauge requires new wheels and axles which is what I did to the two that passed through my hands. I also anglicised the one I kept but it is still a BIG loco.
Mick
Rod is correct the motor in the geared loco is a Lindsay but exactly which version is difficult to determine. The Ken Kidder loco is an 0-4-0 of which there two HOn3 versions, the model as shown in your photograph, mudhen, which came with two different chimneys and a version with a 4w tender. There was an HO version without the tender.
Given their antiquity are any of them possible candidates for the Heritage Collection?
Malcolm
Malcolm,
The Ken Kidder Mudhen probably is as the provenance is known as an early-ish 3.5/4mm scale narrow gauge loco model. The others may well be suitable if the provenance can be found out, particularly regarding the 3 assumed scratchbuilt locos.
Not my territory but Rod, who is the Heritage Officer amongst his other attrubutes now he has been issued the key to the Director's helicopter and Rolls may well have an opinion and a voice regarding whether they should be allocated to the Heritage Collection?
Mick
Regarding the C & L loco, it has just occurred to me that David Lloyd had such a loco on his Augher Valley Railway. Could this be it? Constructional style would indicate late 50s/early 60s to me. If this IS the case it would certainly merit a place in the Heritage Collection if available.
As would the red loco if only as an example of how things used to be done.
Outside of the Mudhen, they all appear to be built in a similar style/manner. I wonder if they were constructed by the same person?
Jeff S.
I think that is unlikely. The first one is a prototype model and looks to me to be considerably better built than the others.
Interesting stuff.....especially since I bought the Climax/Dunkirk from the Society Sales Stand at the Oxfordshire open day so it's nice to know something of its provenance.
To me the cab seems to be a later, scratchbuilt, addition/replacement as it's very nicely made from styrene sheet.
One minor mystery is that, if placed on the loco, there is quite a large gap between the cab front and the rear of the boiler assembly, even though the cab sits on quite happily.
I also own a Ken Kidder loco although it's a standard H0 example bought from a friend who was trying to sell it.
Sadly the only interest he had was from someone who wanted to dispose of the body and build a 7mm n.g. Loco on the chassis so I suppose I rescued it!
It runs very sweetly, especially considering its age.
Anyway, the Climax /Dunkirk is waiting for me to get around to doing something with it; I'll have to do some research on the prototypes and perhaps see about building a cab that fills the gap!
Regards,
Simon.