I've been spending these dark evenings building a scratchbuilt model of a Kitson style 2-4-2. Being born and bred in Buxton, I'm a big fan of the Leek & Manifold Railway, and I've bought a Meridian Models model of the 2-6-4, along with a Minitrix N gauge 2-6-2 chassis - but that's a future project.
I wanted something rather smaller, so had the idea of a fictional version of the L&M 2-6-4 Kitsons - similar in style, but smaller - say a 2-4-2 - about 18ft rather than 26ft long.
This is (literally) cut & pasted from Robert Gratton's book, and illustrates in a rather crude form what I'm trying to achieve.
(https://forum.009society.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fd%3A%2FPhotos%2FModel%2520Railway%2F2-4-2%2FScan_20160201.jpg&hash=78612f8a9467d08164144f32ce1b17e716b71dfb)
I'll leave it there for the time being. I'm a bit new to this posting business, and I'm not sure I've inserted the above image correctly. (If I haven't, can someone advise me?)
You are much better than I am - it took me quite a while to add images...
Your image is visible, all works fine
Gerhard
As a suggestion of something else with local links that is about the size you seem to be looking for have a look for a Kerr Stuart 0-4-2T Skylark kit (once under the Chivers Finelines label now sold by Five79. One was used on the construction of the L&M along with the Sirdar (Kerr Stuart 0-4-0T), and whilst the kit is designed for the hard to get (and dubious quality) Bachmann 0-4-0 chassis I would recommend using one of the 0-4-0 chassis from the N-Drive range - iirc he does one with the correct 3' wheelbase (though perhaps not the 10 mm wheel diameter - I think the biggest is 8 or 9) and the kit should only need minimal modifications to fit the chassis.
It might also be possible to make a passable Sirdar using the Skylark kit (or parts of it) and one of the Minitrains F&C outside frame 0-4-0 chassis.
Thanks Julien, that's food for thought for a future project. I'm impressed by the performance of the Minitrains chassis, but it's a little too long, and the motor would be very visible in the open cab of the Sirdar. There's a photo of the Skylark on the N-Drive website, but with an inside frame chassis - an outside framed version is under development. Slow speed running is very important for me, and I can't believe that the N-Drive chassis can be as good as the Minitrains given its small size. Can it?
Looking at your drawing the obvious question is where will the firebox go?
On the original 2-6-4 the firebox was between the rear driving wheels and the first of the rear bogie wheels.
Brian Meldon
Julien- Pretty sure a Skylark had 2' 3" (9mm) diameter wheels.
Brian - I've not built it exactly as per the drawing, so the firebox seems to go from midway between the two driving wheels to about halfway between the rear bogie and the rear driving wheels. It's been hauling trains on my layout for the past 3-4 weeks, so wherever it goes, it seems to work!! ;D
I'll post the next instalment tomorrow. I need to catch a train now (12" to the foot scale!).
Quote from: howardclowes on February 04, 2016, 13:47
Thanks Julien, that's food for thought for a future project. I'm impressed by the performance of the Minitrains chassis, but it's a little too long, and the motor would be very visible in the open cab of the Sirdar. There's a photo of the Skylark on the N-Drive website, but with an inside frame chassis - an outside framed version is under development. Slow speed running is very important for me, and I can't believe that the N-Drive chassis can be as good as the Minitrains given its small size. Can it?
A lot of that is to do with the motor, and Neville uses a flat can motor (from Mashima?) not unlike the MinitrainS ones. The two N-drive chassis that I have run very well, I can't really compare them to the MinitrainS ones (haven't had a chance to run any of my three at an exhibition) but better than the Bachmann chassis they replaced under two Chivers (Five79) Woolwich Arsenal Avonside 0-4-0 locos.
Having thought about this I understand that Paul Windle has produced at least one (maybe more) Sirdar locos on a modified N-drive chassis that had been fitted with outside frames (there was one at the Colehill members day - I photographed it and I think Mick Thornton did to). I haven't (yet!) asked Paul how he did this as I don't think that Neville has got around to it yet, so it may be worth asking Paul how he does it, or seeing if he could do the conversion on a chassis for you to do an OSF Skylark.
This (https://flic.kr/p/AWb7cY) might link to my photo (doesn't always work on the iPad).
Rod, I'm sure you are right - I admit I didn't check when I posted! ;D
Thanks for your input. It's certainly made me think about a Skylark/Sirdar for a future project.
But to continue, I bought a Minitrains F&C chassis from Member's sales, some plasticard, domes and chimneys from Parkside Dundas and set to work. I planned to use the spare pony trucks from the Minitrix 2-6-2.
You'll see from the first photograph that it doesn't look quite right. It's even worse when the footplate is added in the second photo.
It turns out that the F&C chassis was not a good choice for this. The rear pony truck is much too far back, and the trucks are inside frames - the main chassis has outside frames.
In the next thrilling(!) instalment, I'll reveal what I did about it. It will make a very long post if I tell the whole story in one go!
Quote from: JulienW on February 04, 2016, 22:05
(there was one at the Colehill members day - I photographed it and I think Mick Thornton did to). I haven't (yet!)
You're right Julien, I did photograph it at Colehill, on Tom Snook's layout, but I'm afraid it isn't a good photo and doesn't show anything of the chassis. However, just to satiate the curious, it is photo number 030 on my report of the Colehill members day held in December 2015 and posted on my blogsite at: http://micksrovingreporter.blogspot.co.uk/
In case nobody wants to be delighted by the range of photos on there. the photo in question is reproduced here..................!!
Mick
Perhaps it worth mentioning that the distinctive L&M locos were designed by Everard Calthrop. The cab design and general proportions are instantly recognisable as his design.
However the basic design principle that he applied to all his locos, coaches and wagons was that each axle would take the same weight of 5 long tons (5.1 tons) each.
This included the driving wheels and the bogie wheels on the locos. Any re-designed loco that uses the general shape of the loco and uses its distinctive cab that is obviously a Calthrop design should in theory also comply with the axle loading.
One example of the larger 4-8-4 Calthrop locos as used on the Barsi Light Railway in India survives. Here is a photo of No.11, Kitson 4509 of 1907 "Lord Airdale", the steam is being produced by a smoke generator in the smoke box and it has 'Sir Alec' nameplates on it now!
(https://forum.009society.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.railnews.co.in%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F12%2FSir-Alec-Steam-Loco-Secunderabad.jpg&hash=b8b42355b3cd8a0833f2ba0c6ab70891c2cbd3e7)
Here is a link to the location of the loco on Google maps: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/17%C2%B026'18.5%22N+78%C2%B030'37.7%22E/@17.4384714,78.5098814,382m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0 (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/17%C2%B026'18.5%22N+78%C2%B030'37.7%22E/@17.4384714,78.5098814,382m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0)
Brian Meldon
Probably a bit too far for a weekend trip... :)
I think Brian has his own private Learjet airborne limousine, so it is but a few hours flight from Essex......................
Mick
Well, the Minitrains F&C chassis had to go. It wasn't wasted - it now sits under a very nice Narrow Planet Hudswell-Clarke. I like the Minitrains range - they run very smoothly, so I bought the older Krauss chassis from members' Sales. This has a much shorter rear overhang, and has inside frames. Although the original Kitsons were outside framed, this one is fictional, so it won't matter (to me ;D).
I got hold of an expended bullet casing from a Bisley sharpshooter to use as the boiler. Ideal because, having a closed end, I could fill it with molten lead. The more weight the better!
I wanted a functional front light, so I made this by encasing the smallest LED I could find in plastic card. The rim was a circle of soft wire, wrapped around a screwdriver - snipped and soldered up. All this had to be done early in the process, as the wires would have to be built in as work proceeds.
Next job - the body.
Have you considered the Branchlines 'Hawk' chassis for this? It can be built up as a 2-4-2. Could be a useful learning curve into chassis building.
Thanks Rod. I wasn't aware of this chassis - Branchlines seem to have a very minimal presence on the internet. A bit late now in any event, as the project is nearly finished. But my next project is the "proper" Leek & Manifold 2-6-4, which I haven't really started yet. I've got the Meridian Models kit and a Minitrix 2-6-2 chassis, but this chassis has inside frames. I see from other threads that the Roco or Farish 08 chassis have been suggested. Ted Polet's modified Backwood's chassis is excellent, but the skills required would be beyond me. Another of Ted's threads details how to construct false outside frames, so this might be a possibility, although anything that might compromise smooth running would have to be approached with extreme caution.
But, so get back to the current project (and conscious to avoid thread drift)-
The body was made from 30 thou plasticard. As the two sides were identical, I tacked two layers of card together, and cut through both layers at once. The exact size of the windows wasn't that important - but they had to be the same on each side! I used a similar technique for the cab front and rear.
The second picture shows the loco assembled. It's beginning to take shape.
Next, we'll see if the chassis fits.
I've always found that fitting a scratchbuilt body onto a chassis is difficult, and I was keen to avoid the "blu-tack" method. In the end I used two small screws down from the footplate into the cylinder block. The screwheads will be visible, but I hope won't be that noticeable when painted black. Also a couple of small screws up from a "false" bufferbeam into the cab floor. It ended up looking like this.
Now was the time for extensive running trials. If I had to make any alterations to get good running, best to make them before the finishing touches are added. So for a while, there was a very odd looking new loco on my layout.
I was particularly worried about the rear pony truck. The rather unconventional arrangement using an O ring, visible in the earlier photos, worked quite well. Unfortunately, it set the pony truck too far back, so I had to resort to a more conventional method, but one in which the pivot point was far too close to the line of the axle. In the event, it was OK, but at this point I abandoned the idea of a truck-mounted coupling. It actually looks a lot better with the coupling body mounted, but I had been worried about its performance on the very tight curves of my layout. I need not have worried - I use Kadee N gauge couplings (now branded Micro-Trains), and these are amazingly tolerant of tight curves. Just don't try coupling or uncoupling on a curve!
I ran the loco for quite a long time in this unfinished state, and once I was satisfied it was running OK, the time had come to improve its looks.
One thing I would do before going any further is shorten the smokebox as it is disproportionately long for the size of the boiler.
Like Rod I would also shorten the smokebox to get it in proportion with the boiler.
Coming back to the 2-6-4 tanks RT Models (http://www.rtmodels.co.uk/rt_models_015.htm) make a set of frames (catalog number 4NCP051) and valve gear (NGLP022) for the L&M locos to fit the Farish 08.
I can't shorten the smokebox - the chimney needs to go there. I suppose in the real world, the smokebox would be smaller and the lamp would be hung out in front on a bracket. Too late to do that now - the lamp is hard wired in! It's the same size as the "proper" Kitson.
The 08 looks a distinct possibility for the Meridian kit, so thanks for the link. But Hattons label the 08 as DCC incompatible (although I'm sure it's possible). So it's that or stick with my Minitrix and see if I can add false frames as Ted Polet's thread from March last year.
I think the 'DCC incompatible' tag really means either you can't just plug a decoder in or in the alternative there isn't room in the 08 body for one. As best as I recall. the 08 chassis fulfills the basic requirement for DCC operation of having the chassis insulated from both sets of wheels. It is a nicely running chassis, far better than that Minitrix junk. I know which I would use. And it already has the flycranks etc.
I've seen a fair few Farish 08 locos on sale on eBay that have had DCC chips fitted. As Rod says there isn't a plug on the chassis for a chip which techincally makes it incompatible for the plug in chips. Get a chip with wires on though and whilst it might be more work with wire cutters and a soldering iron it would appear that the job can be done, and with some of the really small chips available can be done within the 08's body.
Fitting the chips to the older style Farish 08 is another matter, but as that's got inside frames (unlike the new ones) it's not the one you want so there is no need to worry.
Finding space for one in the L&M 2-6-4T should be a doddle, and having fitted a chip to a Lifelike 0-6-0 under a Paul Windle Hunslet 0-6-0T which also has an illuminated headlamp not unlike your Kitson the job is probably no harder than wiring up track.
You're right - a quick Google reveals that it's quite possible to fit a chip to the Farish 08. It's just that it's a hard-wired job rather than a straightforward plug-in. Looks like I'll be getting one for my next project!
Returning to my current project, time to complete the body and add the fittings. Tank tops and fronts, and the roof were from plasticard again, taking the opportunity to fill any available spaces with Liquid Lead. Chimney and dome were from Parkside Dundas (if I remember correctly) and the smokebox door was from the Minitrix 2-6-2 which is (was!) to be used as a donor chassis for the full-sized L&M kit. I forgot to take a photo at this stage, so the next picture is of the loco in a fetching shade of grey primer.
This really shows up the imperfections, so it's quite a long job with filler and very fine wet & dry to get it smooth.
This post brings progress virtually up to date, so it might be a while before the next one - it depends on how much time I can find to finish the model off.
I quite like the L&M's original livery of light chocolate. Finding the right shade wasn't easy, but eventually I settled on Humbrol Brick Red (!!!). Of course, nobody's quite sure of the exact colour, as all photos taken during this period were black and white.
Still a bit of work to be done to get the paint finish right. Also, the fiddly bits - whistle, handrail, filler caps, glass in windows, and of course the crew to try to hide the motor and DCC decoder.
Then the lining and decals. I can't think of any way I could successfully carry out the lining in the original L&M colours - a thin red line bordered in white - so I think I will probably go with plain off-white lining. 0.35mm from Fox Transfers.
A very attractive little engine Howard, and it is unique! Well done indeed.
Mick
Done a bit more work on this now. A few more refinements to do before I can declare it finished - the twisted wire handrail knobs need replacing, the roof needs fixing in place, and a little light weathering. The wheels need to be all the same colour. Nameplates are on order from Narrow planet - the name will be E.R.Brewer, a colleague of Messrs Calthrop and Earle.
Next project will be the full size version from a Meridian models kit. Thanks for the advice on the chassis. I will now probably go for the outside framed Graham Farish diesel rather than use the old Minitrix chassis I have.