Hello,
I recently joined the 009 Society after discovering that the newsletter was being offered in PDF format. The membership rate fit within my budget much better than a mailed to the states printed copy membership. Upon joining, I received three recent PDF issues. I was wondering if any back issues in PDF are available.
Jeff S.
Haven't seen any announcement in the news regarding this-have i missed it?
Neither have I, the option of PDF is something several of us have been asking for for several years but was poo-poo'd by those who prefer paper, perhaps they are trialing it?
Alan, I've just had a look at the 009 Society main page for Membership and it's there!
Interestingly it's under the Outside of the UK section as
Some societies publish their entire back catalogue of newsletters electronically in a members' only section of the web page. Others seem reluctant to do so, often citing author copyright as the reason.
An electronic version would be a great help in searching for articles.
Thanks I'll drop Alan an E mail
As a French resident I have taken advantage of this opportunity, the reproduction is excellent. Given my eyesight concerns it is extremely useful to be able to enlarge as needed in a P.D.F. format. Thank you for this service.
Doug
This is very interesting and I hadn't noticed it was available in PDF, although I do prefer paper copies. I'm glad this will be an option and if the back issues become available this will be a big bonus :)
Quote from: Chubber on July 05, 2015, 18:20
As a French resident I have taken advantage of this opportunity, the reproduction is excellent. Given my eyesight concerns it is extremely useful to be able to enlarge as needed in a P.D.F. format. Thank you for this service.
Doug
That is indeed a bonus. Also changing font (though it is good to see the 009 News uses an easily readable sans serif font), coloured background (though there has been debate recently whether that is of benefit to dyslexics) and text to speech readers.
In the early days of societies storing electronic copies of their publications the quality of images often suffered to keep file size and download time manageable. Even living in a broadband backwater where video streaming is not practical, documents are no problem.
I would still opt for paper copies as I much prefer them. However I have experimented with scanning my own copies (for my own use and not for anyone else I hasten to add). I was pleasantly surprised to find that the PDF which looks like a facsimile is searchable. Clearly Optical Character Recognition is taking place. I found just one or two places where is failed. I've not followed it up because of the time involved and because it seemed pointless unless I can find a way of editing and correcting the OCR.
Quote from: cornelius on July 05, 2015, 15:19
At present the PDF subscription is only available to members outside the UK, to offer them a reasonable membership rate versus ever increasing postage costs. I think this should actually be
So that we can all see how good the PDF version is here is an example from October 2013:
http://www.009society.com/october2013.pdf
Brian Meldon
PDF looks fine but I would still prefer a printed copy. However, because I'm in the States I will have to go with the PDF version just to save on the postage. I work in printing so I could probably get this printed at work, but it would take a while to impose all the pages in their correct order. Would it be possible to get a press ready PDF?
Mal.
Another group looked at electronic copy only subscriptions for home members and concluded that the cons outweighed the pros. The economy of scale of printing can be lost resulting in greater differential in the cost of paper v.s. electronic copy and so the situation can snowball. I suspect there is a good deal of 'headology' involved too and once electronic only publication takes place standards standards start to fall as contributors input is seen as some way devalued. There would need to be some other influence to maintain standards. Electronic-only scientific journals have peer review and commercial publications need to maintain standards to retain their customers.
When work is done by volunteers people expect it for free and when it is free people don't value it. The very handsome 009 Society News that comes through my letterbox highlights just how much time and effort goes into producing it.
On the other hand electronic copy for archive and search purposes is very attractive. Having said that, apart from initial curiosity I've not used the electronic copy of Railway Modeller, though I'm not desperate to read it on the daily commute and such. Now it might be a completely different story if I had access to old editions and could read or re-read articles from years past on previous incarnations of the layout or to look up articles that an author cites as influencing the layout in the current edition.
For Heaven's sake, Graeme, it's only a Society Magazine not the complete works of Shakespeare!! :)
Glad to hear that, Stephen, I hope that they give the option soon.
Quote from: Hobby on July 07, 2015, 09:38
For Heaven's sake, Graeme, it's only a Society Magazine not the complete works of Shakespeare!! :)
Glad to hear that, Stephen, I hope that they give the option soon.
Did I say it was?
In another group, what was a valuable technical resource used to be published as an appendix to the magazine. Because not all of the information was of interest to all of the members all of the time it was decided to publish it electronically only. Result - authors stopped writing the material.
There is a distinct danger that that if electronic delivery of the 009 News becomes the norm then it makes itself redundant as there are other electronic channels that are equally if not more suitable:
Roving reporter - direct link to photo web site
Branchlines - area group blogs
Trade matters - ditto
Letters - ditto obviously
and so on.
When those elements of the content are lost the 'News' has to rely more on 'features' for content. OK, there may be no Shakespeares writing for the 009 News but the discipline of writing for publication tidies up the writing and the thinking that is often not present in online posts. Additionally a good editor can help authors who are not sure of their work.
If the norm is for the publication to be produced and delivered electronically then potential authors may think "why bother with the middle man?" and instead write for this forum or elsewhere. And then when you are no longer concerned about fitting the constraints of a paper publication there is no incentive to kill your darlings and you end up with stream of consciousness drivel like this!
With respect, they are already there, many local groups already have websites, including both of my local ones. Not to mention Forums such as NGRM and this one which haven't killed off the News. Has the introduction of pdf versions of the MR Mags killed off them? No it hasn't... There will always be a small number of people who don't want to move with technology but they shouldn't be used as an excuse to stand still...
I am a member of several societies that use pdf only for their mags and they work perfectly ok...
As I've said when this has been discussed in the past, if you want a paper version then fine, but that shouldn't prevent those of us who want a pdf version getting that once they have sorted out the logistics.
Hey guys,
This is a hobby ( no pun intended )
Lighten up and enjoy life.
Stan.
Sorry, Stan, I have let my frustration with the Society's seeming reluctance to move with the times get the better of me!
On a final note, though, a note to Stephen, another Society I used to be a member of didn't send the magazine out but had it on a secure part of their website which could be accessed by a code which was changed from time to time, perhaps that would save on the hassle of emailing it?
Lest I be regarded as being a Luddite, I'm in favour of access to PDF versions (see my earlier post - accessibility is a consideration, and not just for those for whom an electronic copy is convenient), but it does need some thought to ensure that the paper copy remains viable for those who want it.
I want my cake and to eat it! I like reading the glossy paper version but would very much like searchable access to older editions. Indexes often just don't fit the bill and free text searches are so much more useful.
Blair
Sometimes the reason articles dry up is because members write and submit them ,but they are never published,so they give up.In other words its all down to the editor at that time.
Whereas on a forum its "publish and be damned"
Nothing to do with the differences between hard copies and pdf ,but it might explain why articles dry up.
I agree with Alan.
To the readers of the articles submitted, which are the most important elements of an article, the words or the pictures?
I agree that a picture can be worth a thousand words, if the article is about how to make or assemble an item, then a picture can be self explanatory, but if the article is merely a story about something with pictures interspersed, then the pictures are merely an interlude showing what is being described, and therefore are not as important.
A little while ago, I submitted three consecutive articles about the construction of my Glen Ogle layout to the 009 magazine editor, with more to follow.
This was basically what members on the forum would have seen had they followed my postings on the forum, including some of the forum pictures.
My forum pictures were reduced in size upon transfer from camera to computer and then saved to Photo Bucket in the reduced 800x600 format for ease of transfer to the forum, the original very large pictures were then erased as no longer required.
When I submitted my articles, I used the Photo Bucket pictures along with my text, the pictures were submitted for illustrative purposes and added interest, but our esteemed editor informed me that they were unsuitable for publication through lack of quality due to there reduced pixel size.
By this time I had submitted two further episodes, but the whole series has been scrapped because I cannot produce the better quality pictures to include with the words, as they have been erased.
Now I do not dispute that the printed picture quality might be poor, because I don't know, but if the article was worth while, would it have mattered, again we will never know.
My feeling is that my words were of insufficient merit when it was realised how many column inches my Glen Ogle layout would consume to cover it's build, and the lack of printable quality pictures I submitted was used to bring my writing career to a swift end ;D
So, does the quality of the pictures matter more than the words fellow modellers??
Kind regards,
BrianT.
The trick with the photos for 009 News is reducing the file size without reducing the size of the photo.
That said the photos have to be good quality in the first place. This does not require an expensive camera or other exuipment, almost all of my Egger-bahn photos were taken using a Fuji Finepix S5500 4mb camera that can be obtained second hand on e-bay for under
I've always just sent the full sized photos (as I took them) and they've never had any issues, Brian (T!), perhaps you could try sending them the originals?
The problem is that many e-mail systems will not work with large file sizes.
They just time out before the files are all sent.
Brian Meldon
Just send a CD with the photos and a word doc on it in the post then or you can split them up into several emails and send one at a time... If you can't burn to a CD then take the camera to the local photo shop and they will put them onto a CD, the word (or notebook) file should have no issues going by email...
Where there's a will, there's a way! :)
I openly admit that this post may seem provocative, and understand that entrenched members of the OO9 Society may have opposing views, I offer it as a basis for discussion, here goes...
Why bother to print a magazine at all? :o
The team necessary to produce and mail each hard copy, should remember that no-one is going to succeed in this day and age by continuing to produce sealing-wax....and, who will take their places when they are shunted into the great siding in the sky?
Abandon the concept of 'Society' and embrace 'Forum' with all its minimal staffing advantages. A considerable voice for railway modelling runs successfully with an 'owner' and four part-time moderators. I refer Your Model Railway Club [ yourmodelrailway.net ] for example.
Produce The News only as a PDF and allow members to download, select and print only those parts they wish to retain as hard copy. A 'print friendly' version could assist towards this end, and those members do not have access to computers and printers will have the choice, continue to cycle to work on their penny-farthing cycles or join the modern world with its pneumatic tyres.
The consumables and postage costs involved in the dissemination of hard copies are presumably sourced including VAT.... electrons cost so very little to deliver so outlay could be slashed, with a corresponding reduction in both membership fees and donations to HMRC.
Freed from the constraints of the editorial system, yet the bounds of decency and truthfulness, members would be able to post what they wish to post, without any concerns over bias or clique-ism.
In place of The News the forum could be rich in photographs, drawings, small 'How-to' articles that do not need to conform to the strictures of a print format, and more easily and subtly posted using a multiple upload system of larger formats paid for out of savings. Imagine writing your own article/post/thread whatever, inserting multiple photographs, videos and drawings, previewing them prior to posting and then posting it by one click. Unimaginable? No, it exists now, along with penicillin, dentures, aeroplanes and foreign travel.
Doug
[Advocatus diaboli]
As the most vosiferous UK based member advocating the choice of having a pdf version I'll take the oportunity to reply first!
I take your point, Doug, and it's one I've used before in these discussions that Times Move On and we should move with them...
However I also accept that not everyone does, or wants to, either because they don't want to or can't afford to... A pdf only version is fine if everyone has access to a computer and printer but not everyone has...
Also some people like to read the Mag in paper form, I can relate to that, I've tried Kobos/Kindles but still prefer a paper book to an electronic one (even though I want an electronic News!)... They should be allowed that choice, though the extra cost should be reflected in the cost, which even then would be a lot less than a computer...
Forums? One of those Marmite things, some people like 'em, some don't... They are not the means to an end... I still prefer local meetings, though again I prefer the ones in peoples houses to "hall" meetings as I find the atmosphere more appealing... As for Forums themselves, they are an extremely useful addition to our modelling, for all the info they provide, but again not everyone likes them and they can become very cliquey, one large general MR forum springs to mind, which can spoil them...
Finally for those who don't have computers then the News provides lots of other info such as meetings, etc...
In the far future I suspect that the paper version will become a thing of the past, perhaps even the News itself, but that time has not yet come....
Blair
Quote from: Hobby on July 10, 2015, 11:01
Just send a CD with the photos and a word doc on it in the post then or you can split them up into several emails and send one at a time... If you can't burn to a CD then take the camera to the local photo shop and they will put them onto a CD, the word (or notebook) file should have no issues going by email...
Where there's a will, there's a way! :)
With the greatest respect for your sensibilities, and an apology if you were trying to be genuinely helpful, this is Luddite-ism.
1. The means of communication exists already. Updating and improving the forum posting facilities instead of erecting another hurdle between contributing and publication makes more sense.
or
2. Designating an email editorial address to which members may email articles by Windows Mail, Hotmail, Gmail etc. circumventing the restrictions of the forum.
If I can send, by email, a double page article with twelve photographs for publication in a national magazine without resorting to zip files, then the latter is probably the most cost effective way of doing it. I suggest 'edsubmitOO9@provider' might be the answer.
Doug
Quote from: Hobby on July 10, 2015, 11:16
I have deleted some of Blairs reply for ease of commenting..
1. As the most vosiferous UK based member advocating the choice of having a pdf version I'll take the oportunity to reply first!
2. Also some people like to read the Mag in paper form
3. Forums? ..... I still prefer local meetings.....
4. As for Forums themselves... they can become very cliquey, one large general MR forum springs to mind, which can spoil them...
Blair
Re 1. I'd agree, if you only want to read a PDF, why pay for a paper copy. Will I lose the choice when I move back to the UK?
Re 2. Then let them continue to pay more for the privilege.
Re 3. Local meetings can still go ahead, with the advantage that the Local Hon. Sec. can let chums know instantly that the venue has burnt down and it will know be at the Dog and Duck PH.
Re 4 If you are referring to RMWeb, it has become largely sweetness and light under the combined benevolent duocracy of Andy York and BRM, I promise it's safe to visit in carpet slippers, the Cliquettes that exist stay largely in their little boxesand Trolls are vigorously hunted down at their first appearance!
Doug
Doug, my earlier post re how to get copy to the Editor was trying to be helpful as the two posters seemed genuinely unaware that there ware other methods of getting stuff to him... It was a reply to the thread-drift rather than anything to do with the core discussion and should have been read that way as it directly followed their posts...
I will reply to you offline re the forum as I do not feel that a discussion on another forum is appropriate, hence I mentioned no names, merely used an example...
Thank you for that, Blair...
In retrospect I think my views on that other forum may be too parochial, I tend to inhabit the 'Card Structure Modelling' and 'Scenery and Structure' sections where I see no bullying or trolling.
Oo-er, am I perhaps a member of a clique there? :o
Do you think my suggestion of a dedicated submissions email address worthy of further consideration?
It is how a huge American site, 'Model Railroad Hobbyists' do business. That way if you submit something that the Editor considers unsuitable or insufficiently worthwhile for publication, the dialogue remains a private matter between the two of you.
Doug
Thanks, Cornelius, that is worth knowing. I did wonder if my idea so simple not to have been thought of already, perhaps it could be more widely promulgated, or have I not yet found that information on the forum/home page?
Doug
Thank you BrianM and Blair for your replies.
If you re-read my post you will see that the difficulty I had was the fact that having got the pictures, which I took specifically to show on the forum, which were high quality from my expensive tripod mounted in most cases, camera, uploaded onto my computer, I then reduced them to 800x600 size and deleted the originals as no longer required, from my hard drive.
I then uploaded the 800x600 copies to Photo Bucket, specifically to ease the posting on to the forum.
So I no longer had the mega sized pictures available to go with my written words, annoying I know, but when I took the pictures, there was no thought about sending them to the magazine.
BrianM, I read your method of picture taking, and was surprised by your comment that you opened the lens wide, as this would reduce your depth of field tremendously, and with the camera tripod mounted, was totally unnecessary as the longer exposure time necessary for the smaller aperture would be no problem with the camera tripod mounted?? Or perhaps I have read it wrong.
Kind regards,
BrianT.
Ah, I see Brian. I always download my photos at top resolution and then save them to a CD/DVD so I have the originals...
Quote from: gtmspyder on July 10, 2015, 18:14
BrianM, I read your method of picture taking, and was surprised by your comment that you opened the lens wide, as this would reduce your depth of field tremendously, and with the camera tripod mounted, was totally unnecessary as the longer exposure time necessary for the smaller aperture would be no problem with the camera tripod mounted?? Or perhaps I have read it wrong.
Kind regards,
BrianT.
Yes sorry there was an error in my last post.
I shut the aperture to the smallest size, that is the largest F number!
Brian Meldon
Ah, progress...
I often wonder now how we ever managed before the arrival of the paperless office ;)
David.
(With apologies for the not entirely helpful contribution to the discussion)
It's an interesting thought, though... I could not have done what I have in Central European modelling without the 'Net and all that goes with it... (OK, perhaps I could, but it would have taken decades of research rather than days...) :)
I'm late to this discussion. Firstly can I please ask you to assume that I don't read every posting so I'm more than likely to miss any question that my be posed to me. If you need me to reply specifically, please send me a private message or an email.
The Society is primarily a postal organisation and every member receives a posted copy of the 009 News. For some years now, the cost of posting the News to overseas members has risen considerably year on year and has been subsided by other means. However, increases in the past 15 months have made this unsustainable and we had to make significant increases in the cost of overseas membership. However, we are conscious that overseas members do not receive the same benefits as enjoyed by the UK members and so have had to look at still providing the 009 News but not in a printed format and so don't need to pass on the increased cost. We have introduced a PDF issue of the News which is presently available for overseas members only.
Overseas members are being offered the option of a PDF-only membership or a continued postal copy (but at an increased subscription fee) at their renewal of their membership. At the moment, it is emailed to them.
We have no intention of offering a PDF-only option to UK members as we are simply not geared up to deal with the extra administration burden that this would create. Please remember that your Committee are all volunteers and many are still working full time and have the pressures of family life.
We are looking at a substantial change to the Society's website where we would expect members who want access a PDF copy to do it through a "self serve" facility where the current and back issues would be available. This will need to be only available for current members only, of course, and we need this to be administered as simply as possible. We are in the process of gathering requirements for this and will be soon seeking tenders from interested parties to make this a reality. We recognise that this is beyond the ability of the Committee to do this "in house" as we don't have time and, in most cases, the knowledge to do this. If you feel that you have skills in this area then please get in touch with the Secretary.
Alan
Thanks Alan. That's encouraging news.
Can someone tell me when the pdf verrsion of the August issue of the newsletter will be emailed?
Jeff S
Hopefully today, Jeff; it's "in hand".
Many thanks, Alan.
Jeff S.
Also late to the conversation, and another who has in the past seemingly been banging his head against a brick wall asking for the option of PDF in the UK (and the added advantage that older archived copies could also be accessed) and NO I would not ask for a discount for not receiving a paper copy (even though at present I am still awaiting delivery of the August copy which I understand some people had obtained a week ago)
It is just that my jokes about the Postal Tractor and snail mail are not that funny when you get the service I do from our beloved post office.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE,
Can we have PDF for the UK as well if we wish.
Message to secretary and committee.
Remember I submitted details ages ago (beginning of 2013 including a request that it was discussed at NGM) about how you could have a secure system at no cost to the society.
And I now have my August copy.
Arrived 2:35 PM 24th July (Over a week later than some!)
Quote from: Commerlad on July 23, 2015, 16:15
Also late to the conversation, and another who has in the past seemingly been banging his head against a brick wall asking for the option of PDF in the UK (and the added advantage that older archived copies could also be accessed) and NO I would not ask for a discount for not receiving a paper copy (even though at present I am still awaiting delivery of the August copy which I understand some people had obtained a week ago)
Just to re-iterate that we are looking at making PDFs available for all members, not just those overseas. We are presently restricting this to overseas members as we can't cope with the administrative burden of including all members at the moment. We are looking at a revamp of the website to allow members to have access to a members'-only area and the PDF news will be available through that on a "self service" basis. Please be aware that we will NOT be reducing the cost of membership for UK members.
It is hoped to have something in place by the end of the year.
Well almost a year later, with a subsequent change in the "management" of both the magazine and the society,
Has there been any further developments that I have not heard of?
Because as seemingly obvious no further progress has been reported and this thread has been dead for almost a year.
As an ordinary member myself I think that I am in a position to say what others may be thinking perhaps.
The OO9 Society is a volunteer run organisation, it is not a commercial operation. Those who volunteer and take on the important work of producing the newsletter and running the forum and website do so in their own time and unpaid. It is rather unfair to attempt to pressure people who are doing these things in their own time.
Let us all be patient and wait until they able to achieve these miracles which take a lot of time and effort.
I agree with Jim.
Perhaps if there is anyone with the knowledge and time to do these things could volunteer their services to the committee?
Brian Meldon
That's good to hear. I love the idea of the 'back' editions. I have piles of unorganised 009 news around the house, I can't ever find the one I want!
Quote from: B.Meldon on June 23, 2016, 11:11
I agree with Jim.
Perhaps if there is anyone with the knowledge and time to do these things could volunteer their services to the committee?
Brian Meldon
I got as far as digitizing a couple of pages from an issue to see how it looked, but until I retire I would not like to promise the time needed. I suspect the web site aspect of making back issues will be more challenging. What I was very pleased to see though with my experiment is that the optical character reading aspect of the scanning worked surprisingly well, though I could not find a way of making corrections. However this is only likely to be relevant if there are plans create an archive of the "pre-electronic era" issues. The oldest content would qualify for "heritage collection" status.
Scott:- We do have an, undigitised as yet, index to all the 009 News issues and the intention is to make this available on line at the same time.
I do not see that storage of old 009 News
I hope this isn't causing too much of a thread drift, but to supplement Brian's comments about storage of 009 News (traditional paper version!), I allocate one of the A4 brown envelopes that the News arrives in monthly per year and write on it "Vol XX Oct xx tyo Sep yy" (using correct number and years of course) and this gets filled as they come in, so on a normal year the envelope will contain 12 issues which it easily accomodates and if you do manage to split it, then there are another 11 per volume held in reserve!
So far I have 43 envelopes and the pile is 16 inches tall - not a great deal considering the 500+ issues contained therein!, but easy to find things or have a pleasant couple of hours browsing through a year's worth of issues when there's nowt on the telly and family conscience forces one to join them in the living room; and I even have an index for the first 3 volumes - only another 40 to do!!
Mick
Quote from: B.Meldon on June 23, 2016, 11:11
I agree with Jim.
Perhaps if there is anyone with the knowledge and time to do these things could volunteer their services to the committee?
Brian Meldon
Fairly certain I tried over 3 years ago (including providing information on how to do it), to have it "shut down" by an informal chat within the committee and not discussed at AGM as I had asked for!
Was also asked not to raise it on here at that time!
Just checked and yes I still have copies of the emails from that time.
Quote from: MickT on June 27, 2016, 15:43
I hope this isn't causing too much of a thread drift, but to supplement Brian's comments about storage of 009 News (traditional paper version!), I allocate one of the A4 brown envelopes that the News arrives in monthly per year and write on it "Vol XX Oct xx tyo Sep yy" (using correct number and years of course) and this gets filled as they come in, so on a normal year the envelope will contain 12 issues which it easily accomodates and if you do manage to split it, then there are another 11 per volume held in reserve!
I just give mine to Julien who hands them out as freebies at shows where the WMids Group have a presence... No need for fling cabinets or envelopes!!
If I really need an article the scanner works just fine...
Same goes for other magazines...
Like Jeff S., who started this thread, I also joined the Society after finding there was a digital option for non UK members.
I would prefer getting the printed copy of the News, but to give the Society a try for a year, I like the less expensive option.
I'm not adverse to digital magazines and books, but at the risk of being called a luddite, I prefer the printed for, when possible.
In exploring all the scale/gauge permutations with regards to UK rail modeling, these last few years, my preference for the Society would be like the Gauge O Guild. There is only the full membership available, for the printed magazine. However, as a member, I have access to every back issue in pdf format. One can search the archive, read it on line, download issues, etc..
To sustain the Society's level of needed income, would they have to stay at the current rate for membership, even if they did go to just a digital News, and would folks still pay that amount?
Jim F
It may be useful to state the following, which I believe reflects the general view of the Society 'management':
The membership subscription is a flat rate and entitles a person in the first instance to membership of the Society (which may seem to be stating the obvious but is perhaps also something easy to overlook!) With membership come assorted other benefits, such as access to members' days and events, the 009 News (in whatever format), and access to the members' Sales and Recycling service.
Regarding the format in which a member receives the News, it is worth bearing in mind that whether it is hard copy or on-line many of the costs of production will be identical - the content does not appear by magic and has to be assembled and processed whatever the format in which it is read, with associated costs. An on-line version is not free to produce. While it may be true that the Society will save on postage where a member opts for an on-line version, if a lot of members choose this some of the production costs may actually rise, as it may well be more expensive (per copy) to print a smaller number of copies than a larger number (economies of scale, and all that). Obviously the exact numbers involved will determine the different costs levels, but the principle still holds.
So I think that whatever options are offered for receiving the News, or whatever option a member chooses, there is still likely to be a single subscription rate for all members.
David Collins.
Just seen and posted in a thread about CD's of old copies. Any access to old copies for newer members is all I am really after.
Just keep the PDF's 3 copies behind the current and I would be delighted but please keep us informed as this is starting to drag.
Just wondering if there has been any further discussion by board members regarding this thread's original question.
Jim F
Quote from: Commerlad on December 20, 2016, 16:30
Just seen and posted in a thread about CD's of old copies. Any access to old copies for newer members is all I am really after.
Just keep the PDF's 3 copies behind the current and I would be delighted but please keep us informed as this is starting to drag.
Hi all,
Totally agree with this as the way forward.
Should be a part of the History and Publications of the 009 Society - presuming that this does exist?
If not - why not?
Thanks
When asking why things are not done please be mindful that our committee are all volunteers. They do not get paid and do all the work they do for the society in their spare time.
But if anyone would like to take on a task that they suggest needs to be done then please do contact the committee to see if this can be arranged.
Brian Meldon
Quote from: B.Meldon on March 17, 2017, 11:28
When asking why things are not done please be mindful that our committee are all volunteers. They do not get paid and do all the work they do for the society in their spare time.
But if anyone would like to take on a task that they suggest needs to be done then please do contact the committee to see if this can be arranged.
Brian Meldon
Hi Brian,
You have taken the 'why not?' out of context - it does not relate to committee inactivity at all.
What is does relate to is the
idea that such a resource could be created and made available to the membership.
There are the usual 'if's' of course!
1 - The willingness of the committee to pursue the idea
2 - As you said - someone to take it on
3 - A secure location to save it to amd enables it to be accessible to the members
Looking at other postings/threads a lot of the work may (or may not) have been done in the past - even if unofficially.
Creating pdf's these days is a relatively simple task - most modern word processor softwares have the ability to either 'export to pdf' or 'print to pdf' as an option.
I anticipate that it would be creating pdf's for the 'historical catalogue' of The News that would take up the time and work.
Thanks
The 009 news is now produced and sent to the printers in PDF format and it has been for some years.
It is the older pre-PDF News that will need to be scanned from hard copies into PDF with character/word recognition.
Brian Meldon
The place to bring up subjects regarding the Society and discuss these, is the Society AGM.
This will take place on Saturday 1st April 2017 in the Parish Hall, Church Road, Rainford WA11 8HE.
You have the opportunity to bring the Newsletter up, produce ideas, volunteer if necessary.
I look forward to seeing you there, the AGM will start at 1pm.
Stan.
Quote from: Stan Williams on March 18, 2017, 08:02
The place to bring up subjects regarding the Society and discuss these, is the Society AGM.
Stan, does this mean that anyone who can not be there, such as overseas members, like myself, are not allowed to bring up these types of topics?
For the record, if this is the case, it is the only association or group I have belonged to in the past few years that states so.
My membership renewal comes due by end of April. If the above is the case, and the attitude of officers, the renewal will require a re-think.
Jim Flynn
Quote from: Jim Flynn on March 18, 2017, 10:52
Quote from: Stan Williams on March 18, 2017, 08:02
The place to bring up subjects regarding the Society and discuss these, is the Society AGM.
Stan, does this mean that anyone who can not be there, such as overseas members, like myself, are not allowed to bring up these types of topics?
For the record, if this is the case, it is the only association or group I have belonged to in the past few years that states so.
My membership renewal comes due by end of April. If the above is the case, and the attitude of officers, the renewal will require a re-think.
Jim Flynn
A simple e-mail or letter to the society secretary outlining your proposal and that you would like this to be included in any other business at the AGM would probably be a good idea.
Brian Meldon
Brian, I do realize that that is a recourse to use for anything I would want to ask the Society leadership.
I was just put off by Stan's post, which seemed to be "there or no where".
I would think asking about, and bring up, subjects such as this is oart of the forum's function.
Jim Flynn
Not at all sure that this forum is the place to bring up Society matters formally. The Forum is, to my mind, intended for informal discussion of topics between members. It would not be reasonable to my mind to expect Society officers to monitor this or any other forum to identify any such matters. As stated above, the defined process if you wish any matter to be considered by the Society is to communicate in writing with an officer or director. I cannot, offhand, think of any other society which operates in any different manner.
Try the Gauge O Guild forum. Guild business, ideas, issues, are all discussed there, with active participation from various officers.
The idea is the forum is THE place for almost all members, no matter where located, to engage in Guild affairs.
Just one example.
Jim F
I'll beg to differ, Rod, it's quite valid to bring up and discuss Society matters on here, (I'm not sure how you think this is doing it "formally" though) as a Forum is just an online version of a Local Group Meeting and such matters are brought up and discussed there and via letters to the News... Not everyone is able to get to group meetings or the AGM so this is their only other outlet.
Banning such discussion would be a bad idea...
No suggestion at all of banning discussion on here. But the point I was making was that the method of raising matters with the committee/directors is very well established, by letter to the secretary or any other committee member. I still maintain that using this forum is NOT the way to raise matters with the committee.
This is an ongoing perennial and always ends up in a circular discussion. Let's get things as straight as it is possible to attempt to do:
1. This forum was created by membership request when it was felt that the old (unofficial) 009 Yahoo Group had become outdated and was no longer being supported. After several years of being available, there are still only 430 members out of a total Society membership of currently over 1800 who have joined, therefore it is only seen by less than a quarter of the membership as distinct from the official newsletter of the Society, 009 News, which is seen by every member. It is fully acknowledged that not every member has internet access, nor does every member want it, but the facility to create an online discussion group has been provided and is there to be used - it is no good complaining if less than a quarter of the members decide to do this.
On the other hand, the independent NGRM-Online forum which most of the 009 Society members who are members of this forum are also members of, was created at around the same period of time as the Society forum and as at today has 2932 members. Many may ask why this discrepancy of numbers - the answer to that if you are concerned about it is to ask the correct person in the recognised manner. The correct person to ask is the elected director of the Society who is responsible for the forum who I would imagine is the Communications Officer, but I may be wrong! If you are unsure and want to find out then the recognised way to communicate with the Society management to raise any issues is via the Secretary. This is very well lodged in the Society charter and rules which if you haven't got and think you should have, then ---------- ask the secretary for a copy!
2. Rod is correct in stating that this forum was established as an informal facility for members to have discussions, online fellowship and etc. Blair is also quite right in that it is available in the same form as a geographical area group, but works as an online group. The one difference however is that it is not a Society group set up as either a recognised or affiliated Group (as defined in the rules) and although it is a closed group open only to members and therefore not a public domain open access forum, it is still somewhere available for any member to express opinions or even sound off, but if you wish to raise any matter officially and have it dealt with in the proper manner, ie there is a record of the business and an audit trail, then please do comply with the working practice of the Society
Rod posted his response whilst I was typing my tome. I would supplement what he stated about writing to committee members by adding that this could also be done by electronic means, ie email. All of the elected directors, and the co-opted appointment holders have email addresses published in page 2 of 009 News.
Having a sound off on a forum is NOT the way to raise things officially to the committee. Rod is absolutely correct, the correct way to officially raise matters to be addressed by the committee is to contact the secretary either by letter or email. It is not an opinion it is the recognised way and is also common sense if you pause to think about it. How are you going to raise a matter of Society policy that requires executive action if you do it by posting something here when you don't even know if the person who would be responsible for dealing with that matter is even one of the 430 out of 1800 Society members who are members of the forum let alone check in to it regularly?
Well, for the record, my question (msg #62) was in reference to A) Jeff's original question, B) a Admin.'s reply (msg #47) and C) a Moderator's reply (msg # 51). So it seems there are some Officer/Official types that are on here, and follow topics. There is not much sense in my emailing the Officers just to repeat a topic already brought up. I was just asking regarding any new development.
And both those replies seemed to indicate it might be something that will appear in the future.
As for all the rest, it seems a lot of talk from folks who are, I think, not Officers, as to what can and can not be discussed on the forum.
Perhaps it's that attitude that keeps the more than three quarters of the membership from taking part on here.
Jim Flynn
There was absolutely no question of what can or cannot be discussed on here. As Mick pointed out, there is a specific defined procedure for bringing a matter to the attention of the committee or directors and that way is NOT by putting the matter on this forum.
Hi all,
OK - In the light of what has passed since I first posted on here....
If a possible idea that may be developed isn't discussed - how would anyone know if it was worthwhile putting it to the committee at a future date?
If ideas are not discussed - they go stagnent.
The question about The News being available in pdf format is such a thing.
If no one is interested in having the old issues available in this format - there would be no need for the idea to be put to the committee.
Anyway - from the comments on here at least - it is something that should be put to the committee using whatever approved method is chosen.
OK - so it's too late to get it raised via the AGM Agenda ie pre AGM.
So - that means that someone who is going to be at the AGM has to raise it as AOB.
I have no difficulty understanding that process and I would volunteer to do so, but I'm not able to be at the AGM (anniversary weekend).
If the idea was put to the Committee by someone though - I would be a willing volunteer to sort out the scanning and creation of PDF's as I have everything required to carry out the task.
Out of interest though...
What is the average attendance figure for the AGM (I'm new and no idea) either as a number or as a % figure?
Thanks
This is a valid place to discuss this matter, just the same as it could be discussed at any branch meeting, though we obviously have to accept that nothing will be done about it though I would hope that matters discussed on here will not be dismissed out of hand but taken into consideration by the Directors of the Society. Knowing the Directors I am sure they do.
However quite honestly I wouldn't bother even trying to raise this matter (PDF News for UK members if anyone has forgotten what this thread is actually about with all the other discussions going on!) at the AGM as I know there are several people out there who are dead against it and will make sure that it's defeated. Every other society I am a member of is either wholly paperless or gives the option with a reduction for paperless. That's the way it should be but there are many around in the Society who want to have their cake and eat it (i.e. use a more expensive method of getting their News but not pay the extra costs)...
We are well behind the more forward looking Societies in this respect.
If I may add a slightly different perspective here as someone who as served
my sentence time as Secretary...
The only way to be 100% certain that the Committee are informed
of anything is to inform the committee directly. If you are not sure whose remit something comes under then your first port of call should the the Secretary who will field it to the relevant person and/or raise the matter at the next committee meeting.
We must remember that our Committee in addition to the voluntary work they do for the Society also have to managing a day job, some form of social/family life and somehow fit some time to enjoy their own hobby (or hobbies). As such we would not expect them to be attending each and every group meeting just on the off-chance that a Society member comes up with something they feel the Committee should look into, and likewise we should not expect them to monitor each and every post for the same reason.
Whilst (I expect) the Committee would not want discussions at group meetings or on internet forums (fora?) to be stiffled (unless they become acrimonius) the only way they will know what the membership is thinking is by said members contacting them direct, and anything else is just 'gossip and hearsay' and that is no way to run any organization.
Coming back to the original question (back in July 2015!!!)...
Quote from: Jeff Schumaker on July 03, 2015, 20:11
Hello,
I recently joined the 009 Society after discovering that the newsletter was being offered in PDF format. The membership rate fit within my budget much better than a mailed to the states printed copy membership. Upon joining, I received three recent PDF issues. I was wondering if any back issues in PDF are available.
Jeff S.
Has anyone put that question, in bold, to anyone on the Committee?
My suspicion is that the answer is something along the lines that after a certain date the News was e-mailed as a pdf to the printers so those issues will not need to be scanned and converted. They will, however, need to be collated and (possibly) compressed in some way and that someone needs to have both the time and expertise to do that. Then we need to sort out how to make that available to members and how do we ensure that only members can access it if these files are 'on the web', and whichever way it is done there will also need to be some form of indexing so that users can find the articles they are looking for without the need to 'read' through each and every issue. Such an archive will also need to be maintained as every month there will be a new issue of 009 News to add, be indexed, etc., etc..
And we also need to sort out scanning all the issues of the news that pre-date the digital age (potentially 30+ years) and then do all the compression, indexing, etc on that lot too.
Added to Jeff's question has been a request that the electronic subscription currently available for overseas members be made available to UK members.
I think Alan Rolfe answered that question...
Quote from: memsec on July 20, 2015, 10:14
<snipped>
The Society is primarily a postal organisation and every member receives a posted copy of the 009 News. For some years now, the cost of posting the News to overseas members has risen considerably year on year and has been subsided by other means. However, increases in the past 15 months have made this unsustainable and we had to make significant increases in the cost of overseas membership. However, we are conscious that overseas members do not receive the same benefits as enjoyed by the UK members and so have had to look at still providing the 009 News but not in a printed format and so don't need to pass on the increased cost. We have introduced a PDF issue of the News which is presently available for overseas members only.
Overseas members are being offered the option of a PDF-only membership or a continued postal copy (but at an increased subscription fee) at their renewal of their membership. At the moment, it is emailed to them.
We have no intention of offering a PDF-only option to UK members as we are simply not geared up to deal with the extra administration burden that this would create. Please remember that your Committee are all volunteers and many are still working full time and have the pressures of family life.
We are looking at a substantial change to the Society's website where we would expect members who want access a PDF copy to do it through a "self serve" facility where the current and back issues would be available. This will need to be only available for current members only, of course, and we need this to be administered as simply as possible. We are in the process of gathering requirements for this and will be soon seeking tenders from interested parties to make this a reality. We recognise that this is beyond the ability of the Committee to do this "in house" as we don't have time and, in most cases, the knowledge to do this. If you feel that you have skills in this area then please get in touch with the Secretary.
Alan
Quote from: memsec on July 27, 2015, 20:23
Quote from: Commerlad on July 23, 2015, 16:15
Also late to the conversation, and another who has in the past seemingly been banging his head against a brick wall asking for the option of PDF in the UK (and the added advantage that older archived copies could also be accessed) and NO I would not ask for a discount for not receiving a paper copy (even though at present I am still awaiting delivery of the August copy which I understand some people had obtained a week ago)
Just to re-iterate that we are looking at making PDFs available for all members, not just those overseas. We are presently restricting this to overseas members as we can't cope with the administrative burden of including all members at the moment. We are looking at a revamp of the website to allow members to have access to a members'-only area and the PDF news will be available through that on a "self service" basis. Please be aware that we will NOT be reducing the cost of membership for UK members.
It is hoped to have something in place by the end of the year.
Now I know that 18 months has elapsed but it should be born in mind that the Committee may have only met 4 or 5 times in that period and there has been several changes to the Committee since then (an AGM and Brian G's health issues) and because of this (and all the other obligations on their time as outlined above) the wheels of Committee grind awful slow...
Quote from: Jim Flynn on March 17, 2017, 07:49
Just wondering if there has been any further discussion by board members regarding this thread's original question.
Jim F
You'll need to ask one of the Committee / Board members Jim as they, and any other members who may have been present at the relevant board meeting(s) are the only people who know what they have been discussing. The best way to do that is to directly ask (one of) the board members rather than wait for one of them to stumble across the question on the off-chance they are looking at the forum.
It's better for them too, as then they can approach this forum in the same way us ordinary members do rather than feeling they need to constantly monitor it in case we are talking about them, and from my own experience I'd much rather be spoken to directly than talked about.
If you have not contacted them directly yet then it isn't that hard to do as e-mail addresses are published in both 009 News and on the 009 Society's website, and (iirc) a written (electronic) copy of the minutes of any Committee meeting are available on application (e-mail or SAE) to the Secretary.
Quote from: Scottish Modeller on March 19, 2017, 22:24
Hi all,
OK - In the light of what has passed since I first posted on here....
If a possible idea that may be developed isn't discussed - how would anyone know if it was worthwhile putting it to the committee at a future date?
If ideas are not discussed - they go stagnent.
The question about The News being available in pdf format is such a thing.
If no one is interested in having the old issues available in this format - there would be no need for the idea to be put to the committee.
Anyway - from the comments on here at least - it is something that should be put to the committee using whatever approved method is chosen.
OK - so it's too late to get it raised via the AGM Agenda ie pre AGM.
So - that means that someone who is going to be at the AGM has to raise it as AOB.
I have no difficulty understanding that process and I would volunteer to do so, but I'm not able to be at the AGM (anniversary weekend).
If the idea was put to the Committee by someone though - I would be a willing volunteer to sort out the scanning and creation of PDF's as I have everything required to carry out the task.
Out of interest though...
What is the average attendance figure for the AGM (I'm new and no idea) either as a number or as a % figure?
Thanks
To address the last one first at a guess I'd say that about 10-15% of members attend the AGM.
To address the rest of your post...
During my time as Secretary I'd much rather have had several members approach me on the same issue. Having multiple notifications on the same (or similar) issues makes it easier to attach some importance to the matter and I would rather have that than have "everyone" assume that "someone else" would get in touch resulting in
nobody doing so, and then "everyone" getting wound up because nobody on the Committee has addressed the issue without realising that the Committee didn't know there was an issue because nobody told them.
Even then, my problem as Secretary was that I'd get given lots of very good ideas, but very (
very) rarely would these ideas come with an offer to assist with their implementation.
So what makes your post even better is that not only do you have an idea of something that could be done you also seem to have the knowledge and willingness to do the job - making you an absolute star
if you make that suggestion direct to the current Secretary - please do so ASAP!
Quote from: JulienW on March 20, 2017, 11:15
Quote from: Scottish Modeller on March 19, 2017, 22:24
Hi all,
OK - In the light of what has passed since I first posted on here....
If a possible idea that may be developed isn't discussed - how would anyone know if it was worthwhile putting it to the committee at a future date?
If ideas are not discussed - they go stagnent.
The question about The News being available in pdf format is such a thing.
If no one is interested in having the old issues available in this format - there would be no need for the idea to be put to the committee.
Anyway - from the comments on here at least - it is something that should be put to the committee using whatever approved method is chosen.
OK - so it's too late to get it raised via the AGM Agenda ie pre AGM.
So - that means that someone who is going to be at the AGM has to raise it as AOB.
I have no difficulty understanding that process and I would volunteer to do so, but I'm not able to be at the AGM (anniversary weekend).
If the idea was put to the Committee by someone though - I would be a willing volunteer to sort out the scanning and creation of PDF's as I have everything required to carry out the task.
Out of interest though...
What is the average attendance figure for the AGM (I'm new and no idea) either as a number or as a % figure?
Thanks
To address the last one first at a guess I'd say that about 10-15% of members attend the AGM.
To address the rest of your post...
During my time as Secretary I'd much rather have had several members approach me on the same issue. Having multiple notifications on the same (or similar) issues makes it easier to attach some importance to the matter and I would rather have that than have "everyone" assume that "someone else" would get in touch resulting in nobody doing so, and then "everyone" getting wound up because nobody on the Committee has addressed the issue without realising that the Committee didn't know there was an issue because nobody told them.
Even then, my problem as Secretary was that I'd get given lots of very good ideas, but very (very) rarely would these ideas come with an offer to assist with their implementation.
So what makes your post even better is that not only do you have an idea of something that could be done you also seem to have the knowledge and willingness to do the job - making you an absolute star if you make that suggestion direct to the current Secretary - please do so ASAP!
Hi Julien,
Firstly - thanks for the measured response to my query/suggestion.
Secondly - an email to the current secretary will be winging it's way through the ether shortly.
Thirdly, - Yes, you are right. I do have the knowledge, experience and facilities to do this and it's something I have already done with other societies I am a member of (not just model railways either!)
To me - there are a couple of things that could kill this idea/suggestion off.
1 - I am aware of the historic hostility in certain areas to this being done.
2 - Obtaining the paper copies on old copies of 'The News' may be a challenge - unless the society has a paper library of back issues?
3 - I read elsewhere that some of this work has been done in the past but it appears this was an 'unnofficial virtual library'. I'd like to know more about that before embarking on the idea/suggestion afresh. as there is no point in doing work that has already been done!
Thanks
Quote from: Scottish Modeller on March 20, 2017, 16:52
Hi Julien,
Firstly - thanks for the measured response to my query/suggestion.
Secondly - an email to the current secretary will be winging it's way through the ether shortly.
Thirdly, - Yes, you are right. I do have the knowledge, experience and facilities to do this and it's something I have already done with other societies I am a member of (not just model railways either!)
To me - there are a couple of things that could kill this idea/suggestion off.
1 - I am aware of the historic hostility in certain areas to this being done.
2 - Obtaining the paper copies on old copies of 'The News' may be a challenge - unless the society has a paper library of back issues?
3 - I read elsewhere that some of this work has been done in the past but it appears this was an 'unnofficial virtual library'. I'd like to know more about that before embarking on the idea/suggestion afresh. as there is no point in doing work that has already been done!
Thanks
To answer those three...
1. I suspect that the hostility might be down to the issue of members asking for this to be done but nobody coming forward to do the necessary work. The other problem is that there is a combining of the issues of "PDF News Acrchive" and "PDF subscriptions in the UK" when they are, in fact separate issues and should be dealt with separately.
Other societies have 'didgitised' their magazine archive and made this available to members on disc (CD/DVD) or memory stick which would remove the issues over putting these onto the Society's website (I feel this is another sticking point that is in reality a separate issue).
2. To the best of my knowledge the Society's Archivist has a full set of 009 News issues, but to avoid 'dropping him in it' I also have a full set of 009 News, though many of the earlier ones are photocopies rather than originals, and I am sure that other long standing members may also have complete (or near complete) sets that, like me, they would be willing to offer for scanning or be able to scan to forward the project.
3. I'm not aware of any "unofficial virtual library", though I would agree that if any work that has been done on this it would be useful in making an "official" version, though that being said should such help from 'unofficial' sources not be forthcoming that should not be a bar to the "official" version.
I hope the above helps.
I think it would be a very good idea to make the archive available in pdf or whatever electronic form. Although some spare back copies are available from the Society, I have been given to understand in the past that some issues are now out of stock. For example, when I started giving radio control demonstrations, I had been given some copies of the News containing radio control articles that I have written, to give out to interested members at shows, but later on I was told there were no more left. So it seems likely that there is no other way of new(er) members getting specific issues they are interested in, let alone a complete set.
I know of other societies which have given their members electronic copies of the back issues, even when they actually sell back copies in paper form to members. Others make the CD or download available for a small(ish) fee. Either way it is in my opinion well worth it first to have the complete set (in searchable form if possible!) and second to be able to stop filling up the bookshelves with the paper copies.
As Julien says, the availability of the archive of back issues is separate from how current issues are distributed.
Frank
Hi all,
A comeback...
Julien is correct - I am not talking about creating a new membership class for 'PDF Subscriber members'.
My whole intent regarding this would be to create, and make available, the historical archive of 'The News'.
My thoughts are that the archive is kept 3 months behind the current issue at any time.
ie - the 3 latest issues of 'The News' would not be available through the archive.
the format of the archive is a question to be looked at though.
To avoid overloading the Forum or exceeding it's bandwidth - it shouldn't be on here.
That means finding a home for it if it is to be a virtual resource and having someone look after it, or, if it is to be a DVD resource, someone to look after editing the DVD content and keep updating it, plus making it available to members who reqquest a copy of the DVD.
Now - a question, if it is a DVD resource, is it to be a free members only resource?
Or - would it be sold through the sales team as another piece of society merchandise?
Then again - would it be sold to non members through the sales team?
This is really getting to far ahead.
But - these are some of the questions that would need to be looked at before anything is done.
Thoughts etc?
Thanks
Sticking my neck out here... In response to some of he more general comments posted in this thread recently (i.e. not specifically about the News in pdf format) -
In a perfect world, lots more people would feel free and find the time to discuss more issues on this forum, which would only be good for all of us. And in a perfect world the Society's officers might have the time to keep their finger on the pulse of what's being discussed here.
Just my two penn'orth, and no offence to or criticism of anyone intended!
David.
Quote from: JulienW on March 20, 2017, 18:23
2. To the best of my knowledge the Society's Archivist has a full set of 009 News issues, but to avoid 'dropping him in it' I also have a full set of 009 News, though many of the earlier ones are photocopies rather than originals, and I am sure that other long standing members may also have complete (or near complete) sets that, like me, they would be willing to offer for scanning or be able to scan to forward the project.
OK, Moderator "hat" off, on with "Archivist" hat , --- So there is no misunderstanding, Archive material is paper format only . The Society's collection of OO9 News ( 1 mint copy of each issue ) only commences with Vol.32 No.1 September 2004. Prior to that date there was no policy to permanently retain any copies of 009 News.
My personal collection ( not the Society's ) does indeed include every issue, but I stress this is my personal collection although I have in place arrangements for the Society to
retain these ( along with my other personal 009 archive material ) on my demise if the Society at that time so wishes.
I have neither the time nor the necessary skills to deal with an electronic archive ( so there is a job vacancy --- submit proposals to the Board of Directors ).
Now some heresy ( a purely personal opinion and it must be strongly stressed not in any way an "official" Society view ), last year to celebrate 500 issues of 009 News, I put together a selection of articles from the first 30+ years of 009 News, (this was Vol43 no.6 March 2016 edition ). At best this exercise could just
& only just be worthwhile repeated once more. Almost everything else in the issues 1973 to 1993 is now just " dross". Early editions have few if any photos and unless you are
obsessively interested in 009 history there is little of any lasting relevance,
009 News as we now know it is very much a product of this century--- so my personal view that the time & effort required to scan pre 2000 editions is not really worth doing.
I stress this a personal view only.
Garry
Quote from: garrywhiting on March 20, 2017, 22:52
Quote from: JulienW on March 20, 2017, 18:23
2. To the best of my knowledge the Society's Archivist has a full set of 009 News issues, but to avoid 'dropping him in it' I also have a full set of 009 News, though many of the earlier ones are photocopies rather than originals, and I am sure that other long standing members may also have complete (or near complete) sets that, like me, they would be willing to offer for scanning or be able to scan to forward the project.
OK, Moderator "hat" off, on with "Archivist" hat , --- So there is no misunderstanding, Archive material is paper format only . The Society's collection of OO9 News ( 1 mint copy of each issue ) only commences with Vol.32 No.1 September 2004. Prior to that date there was no policy to permanently retain any copies of 009 News.
My personal collection ( not the Society's ) does indeed include every issue, but I stress this is my personal collection although I have in place arrangements for the Society to
retain these ( along with my other personal 009 archive material ) on my demise if the Society at that time so wishes.
I have neither the time nor the necessary skills to deal with an electronic archive ( so there is a job vacancy --- submit proposals to the Board of Directors ).
Now some heresy ( a purely personal opinion and it must be strongly stressed not in any way an "official" Society view ), last year to celebrate 500 issues of 009 News, I put together a selection of articles from the first 30+ years of 009 News, (this was Vol43 no.6 March 2016 edition ). At best this exercise could just
& only just be worthwhile repeated once more. Almost everything else in the issues 1973 to 1993 is now just " dross". Early editions have few if any photos and unless you are
obsessively interested in 009 history there is little of any lasting relevance,
009 News as we now know it is very much a product of this century--- so my personal view that the time & effort required to scan pre 2000 editions is not really worth doing.
I stress this a personal view only.
Garry
Hi Gary,
Thanks for making the effort and taking the time to make the current situation clear.
It is much appreciated - at least by myself, but probably a few other members as well.
I made the point that I wasn't asking for someone else to do this - I offered to do it myself.
As I said further up the thread - I have sent the suggestion/idea to the Secretary as a possible topic under AOB at the AGM.
Thanks
Quote from: garrywhiting on March 20, 2017, 22:52
Now some heresy ( a purely personal opinion and it must be strongly stressed not in any way an "official" Society view ), last year to celebrate 500 issues of 009 News, I put together a selection of articles from the first 30+ years of 009 News, (this was Vol43 no.6 March 2016 edition ). At best this exercise could just & only just be worthwhile repeated once more. Almost everything else in the issues 1973 to 1993 is now just " dross". Early editions have few if any photos and unless you are obsessively interested in 009 history there is little of any lasting relevance,
I disagree. As a recent member (2+ years), I would think that there could be some useful info in those early issues. Perhaps not to those who have been members for a long time, but for members who have joined since 2000, or possibly 1990.
Since I started this thread, I discovered that the Society put out a series of CDs containing the newsletters from the Society's creation up to April of 2003. Through the graciousness of a former newsletter editor, I was able to obtain those files. I have converted them all to pdf format. In addition, a friend of mine, here in the States, has been loaning me his back issues to scan and convert. Within the next month, I hope to have converted the issues from May 2003 up to when the Society began providing pdf copies for overseas members. At that time, I would like to make them available to the Society. My question is, what process is needed to take place for this to happen.
One caveat - I cannot seem to condense the pdf files to the size that is currently being provided. If whoever is converting the current newsletters to pdf files could let me know how he is doing it, it would be appreciated.
Jeff Schumaker
member 7055
Quote from: Jeff Schumaker on March 21, 2017, 00:18
Since I started this thread, I discovered that the Society put out a series of CDs containing the newsletters from the Society's creation up to April of 2003. Through the graciousness of a former newsletter editor, I was able to obtain those files. I have converted them all to pdf format. In addition, a friend of mine, here in the States, has been loaning me his back issues to scan and convert. Within the next month, I hope to have converted the issues from May 2003 up to when the Society began providing pdf copies for overseas members. At that time, I would like to make them available to the Society. My question is, what process is needed to take place for this to happen.
One caveat - I cannot seem to condense the pdf files to the size that is currently being provided. If whoever is converting the current newsletters to pdf files could let me know how he is doing it, it would be appreciated.
Jeff Schumaker
member 7055
Jeff, while I cannot comment on 009 News, I have been through precisely this same process with
Light Railways, the magazine of the Light Railway Research Society of Australia. For some years our editorial team have produced LR using desktop publishing software called InDesign, which is an Adobe product, and after the issue is signed off a print-ready PDF is produced from InDesign for printing. A "web" version is also produced, at a lower resolution, for our PDF subscribers (and to buy from on our online shop). This is still a true PDF, with the text and maps/diagrams in vector form so that when viewing on a screen the page can be zoomed in as much as you like, with these bits perfectly clear. The photos lose resolution though as they are zoomed - that's the trade-off.
Older issues have had to be scanned and converted to PDF. I used Adobe Acrobat both for scanning and text recognition, but like you I found it very difficult to get the filesize down below 10Mb. The biggest problem is that each page is an image, rather than the images only being the photos in the magazine. Eventually they were scanned effectively at quite a low resolution. The scanned versions are nowhere near the quality of those produced from InDesign.
The text recognition works very well though, and it is possible with Adobe Acrobat to search a whole directory of PDFs looking for words or phrases. That's very useful if you have the full set (as I do in my role as Sales Officer). There's actually one view within our committee that as a research body we should be making all of our LRs (except perhaps for the last year or two) available as a free download. There are obvious risks in that, but the big advantage is that google searches will include the text of all of our magazines, therefore exposing our Society to more potential members. The risk of the mags being resold can be mitigated somewhat by protecting the files and adding a line at the foot of each page indicating the source of the document, and the fact that they can be downloaded for free from our website.
Sorry, that went on a bit longer than I planned, but a lot of the discussions in this thread have mirrored committee discussions in the LRRSA, and I thought our experience might be useful.
John Dennis (2711)
Quote from: JulienW on March 20, 2017, 11:00
Added to Jeff's question has been a request that the electronic subscription currently available for overseas members be made available to UK members.
I think Alan Rolfe answered that question...
Quote from: memsec on July 20, 2015, 10:14
<snipped>
The Society is primarily a postal organisation and every member receives a posted copy of the 009 News. For some years now, the cost of posting the News to overseas members has risen considerably year on year and has been subsided by other means. However, increases in the past 15 months have made this unsustainable and we had to make significant increases in the cost of overseas membership. However, we are conscious that overseas members do not receive the same benefits as enjoyed by the UK members and so have had to look at still providing the 009 News but not in a printed format and so don't need to pass on the increased cost. We have introduced a PDF issue of the News which is presently available for overseas members only.
Overseas members are being offered the option of a PDF-only membership or a continued postal copy (but at an increased subscription fee) at their renewal of their membership. At the moment, it is emailed to them.
We have no intention of offering a PDF-only option to UK members as we are simply not geared up to deal with the extra administration burden that this would create. Please remember that your Committee are all volunteers and many are still working full time and have the pressures of family life.
We are looking at a substantial change to the Society's website where we would expect members who want access a PDF copy to do it through a "self serve" facility where the current and back issues would be available.
Alan
That is exactly what I meant when i said it's just not worth bothering trying to get a change and bring the Society into the Modern World.
Let's look at it logically...
1. There is already an email list for the PDF version of the News for Overseas Members which has to be updated as appropriate.
2. That means it can be done.
3. It would need updating
once a month maximum, the same, incidentally, as the current file used to print the paper labels for the "posted" version.
So where is the "extra" admin...
I believe the real reason (and it's been mentioned before somewhere but I am not going to trawl through this (and an old thread elsewhere) to find it) is that if a large number of Members chose to go paperless it would put the costs of a paper version up so much it would put in major doubt whether the Society could continue with it without a substantial increase of subs for those who want it paper-based.
That is why it'll never get agreed.
Even though I and others have already said we'd be prepared to continue paying the current subs rate
with only a few quid reduction (as opposed to a larger one the savings would justify) to subsidise the "paper" members...
Quote from: garrywhiting on March 20, 2017, 22:52
OK, Moderator "hat" off, on with "Archivist" hat , --- So there is no misunderstanding, Archive material is paper format only . The Society's collection of OO9 News ( 1 mint copy of each issue ) only commences with Vol.32 No.1 September 2004. Prior to that date there was no policy to permanently retain any copies of 009 News.
My personal collection ( not the Society's ) does indeed include every issue, but I stress this is my personal collection although I have in place arrangements for the Society to
retain these ( along with my other personal 009 archive material ) on my demise if the Society at that time so wishes.
I have neither the time nor the necessary skills to deal with an electronic archive ( so there is a job vacancy --- submit proposals to the Board of Directors ).
Thanks for that clarification Garry. I had not realised that the Society's collection was incomplete and the balance was filled by your own personal collection. At least it shows that I'm not the only
sad sack member to have a full set of News. :D
Quote from: garrywhiting on March 20, 2017, 22:52
Now some heresy ( a purely personal opinion and it must be strongly stressed not in any way an "official" Society view ), last year to celebrate 500 issues of 009 News, I put together a selection of articles from the first 30+ years of 009 News, (this was Vol43 no.6 March 2016 edition ). At best this exercise could just
& only just be worthwhile repeated once more. Almost everything else in the issues 1973 to 1993 is now just " dross". Early editions have few if any photos and unless you are
obsessively interested in 009 history there is little of any lasting relevance,
009 News as we now know it is very much a product of this century--- so my personal view that the time & effort required to scan pre 2000 editions is not really worth doing.
I stress this a personal view only.
Garry
Whilst the standard of production has come on hugely since the milenium I do miss some of the prototype articles with the scale drawings (and the cover artwork drawings as we couldn't really do photos) from the 1980s - but then I may be biased. I'd agree that looking at reports from the Outer Rockall Group from the mid 1970's gestener-printed editions in pdf format will probably have little appeal, but for the sake of completeness they should be done (especially if someone is willing to do them!).
Quote from: Jeff Schumaker on March 21, 2017, 00:18
<snipped>
Since I started this thread, I discovered that the Society put out a series of CDs containing the newsletters from the Society's creation up to April of 2003. Through the graciousness of a former newsletter editor, I was able to obtain those files. I have converted them all to pdf format. In addition, a friend of mine, here in the States, has been loaning me his back issues to scan and convert. Within the next month, I hope to have converted the issues from May 2003 up to when the Society began providing pdf copies for overseas members. At that time, I would like to make them available to the Society. My question is, what process is needed to take place for this to happen.
One caveat - I cannot seem to condense the pdf files to the size that is currently being provided. If whoever is converting the current newsletters to pdf files could let me know how he is doing it, it would be appreciated.
Jeff Schumaker
member 7055
I remember the Society producing indexes for 009 news at various times but I don't recall a set of 009 news being made available in electronic format (continuous membership since circa 1980) so you appear to have a very useful and rare resource, particularly as you have kept this up to date by adding to it.
In order to make this resource available to members (and many thanks from this member for your offer) you will need to let the Committee/Board know, so I would drop the Secretary an e-mail on the subject to inform him (and the rest of the committee) formally that such a resource exists and that you are prepared to make it available. It might also be useful to do that sooner rather than later as at least one member has e-mailed the Secretary on this subject, and as I mentioned before the more members express their views to the Committee them more credance can be given to the issue at hand.
To add to john Dennis' post the Society also uses InDesign for producing the news - or at least it did because I was Secretary when we adopted the system & bought the software! Assuming that we are still using that system then the method will be as outlined by John Dennis (who seems to understand it much better than I ever did!), but a quick e-mail to the Editor should provide a definitive answer.
I said in my long tome that I wouldn't get involved in debate about this, but I can offer a couple of snippets now that the subject has stabilised (I think) into the matter of electronic copies of old issues of 009 News.
To answer Julien's comment "I remember the Society producing indexes for 009 news at various times but I don't recall a set of 009 news being made available in electronic format "
I don't think "the Society" have ever produced indexes. This has been done a couple of times by volunteer members "unofficially" - one produced a few years ago by William Loyd comes to mind. I can remember reading of several others either proposed or actual over the years. I'm sure that during my own brief tenure as Sec that a copy of an index was handed over with the rest of the Secretarial files so something albeit 10 or so years out of date does exist, somewhere, and if a willing volunteer stepped forward to update it, no doubt the offer would be enthusiastically taken up
E-copies of the News. David Camis did a complete set of scans of all the early issues some years ago and advertised their availability through 009 News, I am not sure up to which date. These were on CDs but were done using the only technology available to him, which was to scan them as .jpg pages - ie 16 .jpg images per 16 page issue.
When Simon Coward became chaiirman, he called all these in and cancelled the service that David was providing as he felt that the technology used was cumbersome and out of date. He intended to either produce or get produced all of these volumes as pdf docs plus carry it forward with all newer issues to keep up to date. Sadly this project never even got started and the result is that apparently the good work that David started has disappeared as I asked the committee frequently for a few years what was happening and nobody seemed to know the answer to the question.
Like Garry and Julien I do have a complete set and have always been prepared to help anyone who asks, with jpg scans of specific articles if I can be provided with the details. It is a pity that nobody ever followed the project through to get a complete scanned pdf archive of 009 News but it didn
Following Garry
Quote from: JulienW on March 21, 2017, 09:40
In order to make this resource available to members (and many thanks from this member for your offer) you will need to let the Committee/Board know, so I would drop the Secretary an e-mail on the subject to inform him (and the rest of the committee) formally that such a resource exists and that you are prepared to make it available. It might also be useful to do that sooner rather than later as at least one member has e-mailed the Secretary on this subject, and as I mentioned before the more members express their views to the Committee them more credance can be given to the issue at hand.
To add to john Dennis' post the Society also uses InDesign for producing the news - or at least it did because I was Secretary when we adopted the system & bought the software! Assuming that we are still using that system then the method will be as outlined by John Dennis (who seems to understand it much better than I ever did!), but a quick e-mail to the Editor should provide a definitive answer.
Thanks, Julien, for the information. I will contact the Secretary.
Jeff S.
In regards to an index to 009 News issues, there was one included with the scans of the early issues I received. It is in EXCEL format, and appears to have been added to, at one time. The first 1934 entries are ordered by year, with the remaining entries ordered by author or supplier. The subject matter is given in a 2 or 3 letter code, some easily decipherable, some not. If anyone wants to work on this file, and add to it, I will attempt to email it to them.
Jeff S.
Quote from: Jeff Schumaker on March 21, 2017, 14:37
In regards to an index to 009 News issues, there was one included with the scans of the early issues I received. It is in EXCEL format, and appears to have been added to, at one time. The first 1934 entries are ordered by year, with the remaining entries ordered by author or supplier. The subject matter is given in a 2 or 3 letter code, some easily decipherable, some not. If anyone wants to work on this file, and add to it, I will attempt to email it to them.
Jeff S.
Hi Jeff,
As the index is in excel format - you will be able to make it available by adding it as an attachment to a posting.
That would, in one go, make it available to anyone who is willing/able to add more issues to it.
There is a possible downside as this would create individual versions with whatever additions were being contributed.
This makes it difficult to control and keep, one master version.
Don't ask how I know - it's a tale that is long in the telling!
Having a shared 'whiteboard' is one idea of how this sort of communal task can be done - but not everyone is happy using them.
So - I have a suggestion that I have used successfully in the past which may help....
One Master File - Jeff's file which only he should edit.
Then for anyone who is willing and able to add to the index - Individual files which you can post onto Jeff's thread.
hoever - this needs a bit of organising beforehand.
If you are willing and able to do this - post on the thread
First - say which issues you are doing.
That then helps control the additions to Jeff's Master File.
What next?
Everyone should use the master as a template and Jeff add any new information to it.
So - create your index and once done - post it on the thread where it can be picked up and added to the Master File.
If you have several issues of The News and are indexing more than one - use a fresh file for each issue.
This helps make it clear what has been done already.
remember - Everyone make mistakes!
If you have and don't discover it until after you have uploaded yout file - don't panic.
Just add a posting showing what is incorrect and what the correction needs to be.
Ok - that's me with my possible way of doing it.
Others may have different ideas though.
Thanks
Quote from: MickT on March 21, 2017, 11:12
E-copies of the News. David Camis did a complete set of scans of all the early issues some years ago and advertised their availability through 009 News, I am not sure up to which date. These were on CDs but were done using the only technology available to him, which was to scan them as .jpg pages - ie 16 .jpg images per 16 page issue.
When Simon Coward became chaiirman, he called all these in and cancelled the service that David was providing as he felt that the technology used was cumbersome and out of date. He intended to either produce or get produced all of these volumes as pdf docs plus carry it forward with all newer issues to keep up to date. Sadly this project never even got started and the result is that apparently the good work that David started has disappeared as I asked the committee frequently for a few years what was happening and nobody seemed to know the answer to the question.
This is a pity. Adobe Acrobat can create a PDF from a JPG, and do text recognition.
An index is a fine idea, but a huge amount of work to do well and could be a thankless task. With electronic copies (such as pdf) of documents being searchable using free text searches, an index might be overtaken by technology. A limitation of both approaches is that they search for specific words, not meaning.
Another approach is for individuals to use the archive as a research tool to gather information on specific themes and create new work such as summaries, abstracts and so on. (Also "review" as in unbiased subject review, not a critical review.) Researchers could concentrate on areas that are of interest to them and of which they are knowledgeable or gain knowledge.
Either approach relies on the primary source material being accessible. If access is limited or restricted, an advantage of the second approach is that the information in a summary may be all that a searcher needs and doesn't need to see the original. If greater depth is needed, then the reader can search out the original. With the first approach there is the danger that great effort may be needed to obtain a copy of the original article only to find that doesn't contain much that was not already known about the subject by the reader.
FWIW, I produced an index of the News for each of the past few years, which was 'advertised' in the magazine, but I have only ever had one request for it from a member. So I probably won't bother to put in the work for future volumes... though there is something rather satisfying in knowing there is an index should one ever want to look something up.
David.
I attended the AGM on Saturday and on the agenda for the meeting (item 9) was "009 News back issues PDFs". There was not a huge ammount of discussion on the subject iirc but there was a section in Steve Fulljames' written report as Communications Officer that I will quote (with Charlie Insley's permission):
"Thanks to David Camis we have a full archive of the 009 News on hand in electronic format and will consider the best way to make this available to our membership."
Unfortunately Steve was not able to attend the AGM to answer any questions on the subject, so if anyone has any suggestions as to how the PDF archive could be made available to the members and/or may be able to assist in doing so then I would strongly suggest that they get in touch with Steve (contact details in 009 News) and discuss the matter with Steve directly.
I know that I will be doing so...