It's time to do some ballasting on my new, small, layout. I decided to have a look through old magazines, etc. for any hints and tips. Now in the mainstream press there is hardly a layout that doesn't go into the "soak with dilute PVA" technique and I even found a couple with illustrated photo essays on how to do it.
All well and and good, but when it comes to points, all I can find is "take care around points". Good advice, but the last time I tried I found that squirting or dripping dilute PVA anywhere near a point to be fraught with difficulties. That would be the time when the dropper: delivered a burst of air which sent blobs of sticky ballast into the point, it would be the time when the PVA decided to form a large globule which refused to run into the ballast or it would be the time that my hand slipped and a few pints of PVA mix were shot over the point. Doubtless some if not all of this is down to a lack of skill but I didn't want to risk it again.
Currently I've painted in between the sleepers, as far as possible with a thick mix of PVA, paint and water and tamped small pinches of ballast into this, I've vacuumed off the surplus and I intend to paint the remaining, fairly well stuck down ballast with a dilute paint with a little PVA in it to further bind it. It seems easier this way to keep the gunge well away from the point mechanism.
I was wondering, does this method sound OK? Also looking at all the excellent looking trackwork on various member's models I was
wondering what methods other people used.
Hi, Paul - a reply from another beginner, which may or may not be helpful!
I'm afraid all I can say is: take care around points, and I think you'll be okay. Certainly that's been my experience; I've had various problems with points but none, I think, directly relating to ballasting. Indeed, I've sometimes been surprised that even experienced modellers prefer to leave quite large gaps in the ballast under the moving point blades, but I've always filled everything in okay. Yes, you do need to try really hard not to get PVA where it shouldn't go - and do your best to remove any which obviously goes astray - and I think it's probably helpful to ensure from time to time during the drying time that things are still free to move. As long as the ballast is below the level of the point blades things should be all right.
The short answer is: sorry, I've no new ideas (and I'll be interested to see if others do) but be brave and press on!
David.
Perhaps you are doing this the wrong way around?
If you use granite chippings for ballast you can place it around the sleepers where you need it then apply
the 50% PVA water mix (with a drop of washing up liquid) at the rate of a drop at a time from a pipette.
Make sure the ballast is below the top of the sleepers, especially under the point blades.
The granite chippings will not move about as they are relatively heavy and they will also absorb the PVA so it will not run where the granite chippings have not been placed. But you have to apply the PVA a drop at a time, use too much in one go and it will go where you do not want it. Practice on normal track first but it is not that hard at all.
Here is a point I recently added to my Westdorf layout.
Granite ballast all carefully placed around and between the sleepers. Then the PVA applied, when dry it is all painted rust brown:
(https://forum.009society.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi663.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu358%2FM-e-l-l-o-w%2FWestdorf%2FWestdorfNW15_zpsf828942a.jpg&hash=856f98d2297875450b74df26ba863c097d605d96)
If you look closely you will see there is no ballast where the slider for the point blades goes, but as it is all the ballast, sleapers and the sides of the rails are one colour this is not noticeable at all.
Obviously all the electrical switching is done via a frog polarity switch on the point motor.
If you do get the PVA on a point mechanism you can just soak up what you can with good kitchen tissue paper and then keep switching the point once every 5 minutes or so until the PVA has set enough so it will no longer bond. With a tiny thin layer of PVA this will only take about an hour or so at the most, the less glue the quicker it will cure.
Brian Meldon
Faced with the same problem, I very carefully used a teaspoon and a small paint brush to get the loose ballast exactly where I wanted it, tested the throw and only when I was convinced I wasn't about to set the whole job solid did I very carefully use a cheap (5 for a quid I think) pipette to drop the dilute PVA mixture into place. I was surprised how much washing up liquid was required to make it flow.
I have found that using a mister type spray causes me all sorts of problems, some of the 'weeds' up the side of a model shed are there because of over spray!
Thanks All - Two things I will do differently following your replies:
1 Use granite ballast - I've got some Woodland Scenics stuff, which must be cork based - there is something on the box about nut allergies & it floats!
2 Mix in more washing up liquid, because of 1 above I've managed a few places where the the PVA forms a blob which attracts all the ballast away from the track on to the surface of the blob!
So far only trying this on "normal" track, so no point related disasters so far.
Thanks again.
Paul
Paul - if you need a turotial on ballasting track, why not look at the way I ballasted the track of Nixnie? Here is the link. (http://www.009society.com/forum/index.php?topic=883.msg5442#msg5442)
When I tried granite ballast it changed colour quite significantly after the PVA mix was applied and had dried.
This may be acceptable to you but a test/demo might be advisable.
In the end I reverted to Woodlands Scenics as that does not change colour.
Bob B.
I thought I'd seen something on here about ballasting but couldn't find it - Thanks Ted, very informative and an excellent result, as usual - and you included a point!!
Bob - Worth knowing about the colour change, I usually find that I end up painting the ballast afterwards as Brian has done. I did think with granite that I may be able to avoid that stage as well.
My local model shop has been selling off some old Railway Modellers (The magazine that is!) from the 60's and 70's I bought one or two with narrow gauge and other items of interest to me in (Models of very early railways 1840s) What was interesting was how few of the featured railways had ballasted track. Makes you realise what high standards people like P D Hancock and Peter Denny set over 50 years ago.
Paul
You'll find the Busch stuff is much like the Woodlands ballast. I haven't seen colour change, but if you scroll down from that Nixnie post you'll find a photo where the ballast has been infused with a very thin grey wash of plaster and black paint (http://www.009dutch.nl/archive/2011/gallery36/images/13IMG_0465.jpg). That will tone down the colour to a pleasant grey-brown, as if it is weathered and full of mud.
You will find that those 50-year-old magazines are full of inspiration. They were what made me go modelling narrow gauge. They came down from my Dad and I still have them.
Just a thought here with respect to the colour change associated with using a PVA / water / washing up liquid mix. Is the colour change related to the colour of the washing up liquid? I recall getting a slight greenish tinge when I last did some ballasting and thinking back the washing up liquid I used was green...
Anyone who has used any of the yellow / blue / purple / orange / sky blue pink liquids care to comment?
If this is the case then perhaps using something else to reduce the surface tension is needed, and my first thought would be Iso-Propyl Alcohol ( that IPA, not India pale ale!)
What I noticed was that when you dampen the granite ballast it naturally darkens but then when it dries out it does not regain its colour.
Bob B.
Quote from: berryr99 on January 29, 2014, 10:39
What I noticed was that when you dampen the granite ballast it naturally darkens but then when it dries out it does not regain its colour.
Bob B.
This is because the PVA gives the granite a coating which acts the same as wetting it. As you will have noticed a dry rock looks lighter than a wet one. Varnish has the same effect.
On all the ballasting I've done on different layouts I have never used washing up liquid to break surface tension. I always dampen the area with plain water applied with a small paint brush and then applied the pva using the same brush to spread the glue where needed. I apply the pva from a long nozzled glue bottle to place the glue where I need it.
Roger
As I posted elsewhere the other day, I recently bought these from Muji which I think will be useful for ballasting:
(https://forum.009society.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.staticflickr.com%2F2829%2F12051696413_8c0fdb7cd6_z.jpg&hash=3543d9e27d58a33d1b82ec873a78a55cd45347d1) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/92012779@N06/12051696413/)
Muji kit (http://www.flickr.com/photos/92012779@N06/12051696413/) by clayliner (http://www.flickr.com/people/92012779@N06/), on Flickr
I forgot to include a ruler but the pipette is only about 7cm long. Each item (set of tools / spray bottle) only a pound or two.
David.
I find ballasting, despite the mess, can be great fun. Messing with water, and tinkering with colours until they are just right. And then, after all has set, enjoying the result! ;D
I use chinchilla dust for ballast*
If you want to go down this route be careful which version you buy as there's one that's finely ground stone, and one that's clay based. If you use the clay based on it swells as you add the adhesive, then cracks as it dries.
I fix it in position with a 70/30 mix of Matte Medium and Isopropyl Alcohol. It has a slight effect on the colour, but only darkens it slightly.
*no chichillas were harmed in the construction of my layout, it is the dust used in the base of their cages :)
Thanks for this useful information. I am about to start ballasting for the first time - there's lots of tips here that I will use.
When ballasting is done right it will not be noticed on your layout.
If it is done badly it grates on the eye - much like everything else really.
So it is worth doing well, whichever method you use.
It is rarely uniform in appearance either. Little used sidings and out of the way stretches will look a lot different to 'main line' track.
Some layouts I have seen dont use ballast at all, but sink the track into the mud, muck & weeds which perfectly represents the run down appearance of a neglected railway that has seen better days. That is rather more dificult to achieve I think, and will not suit all layouts.
Take a close look at pics of railways that are similar in style & of the same period to the one you are modelling.
I also use a teaspoon and small brush to locate the ballast but by far the biggest innovation in a long time is Deluxe Ballast Bond. It comes as a liquid in a bottle together with a very fine nozzle for application. No prior wetting is needed and the nozzle allows you to control exactly where to apply the liquid. It sets very quickly compared to PVA and I have found it the best product so far.
I do not have any connection with the company but, as with a lot of their other products, I have found it does exactly what they say it should.
Thinking obliquely, I see the main problem as getting sufficient liquid through the ballast layer to reach the surface to which the track is secured....
Like the majority I've previously used the traditional method of dripping fluid onto the ballasted track until I can be sure it is so, sometime inadvertently washing away, or shifting ballast by over-enthusiastic application.
I wonder [never having tried it...] if laying the track over blotting paper or the like would help, by 'wicking' the fluid evenly underneath the track before this happens?
As it will be a long time before I shall again be ballasting anything, is there anyone who would be willing to try it, at least on a small stretch of track?
Doug
That is the great thing about Ballast Bond. It reaches the parts others cannot reach! It also sets like glue because it is.
Since the liquid is quite thin it gets down to the bottom of the ballast layer and yet it does not need any added wettener, like washing liquid.
If I may add my two pence worth - on our Cardi-Bach Layouts (3mm) and on the present 009 under construction, we have used beach sand from above high-water (one of our local beaches has grey sand) and on another occasion scrounged a bag of granite dust from a local quarry.
50% PVA and 50/50 water & meths applied with a syringe. Ballast sprinkled in, and prodded with finger. Final mist with meths from a little plastic spray bottle. Obviously this has to be done before any buildings/scenics are in place. Vacuum the residue and clean track with a dental pick.
Not everybody's cup of tea, but it works for us...
Shaun.
Quote from: Chubber on August 04, 2015, 15:31
Thinking obliquely, I see the main problem as getting sufficient liquid through the ballast layer to reach the surface to which the track is secured....
Doug
use a spray mister to wet the track and ballast before doing the eye-dropper thing.
Quote from: hughn on August 05, 2015, 20:33
Quote from: Chubber on August 04, 2015, 15:31
Thinking obliquely, I see the main problem as getting sufficient liquid through the ballast layer to reach the surface to which the track is secured....
Doug
use a spray mister to wet the track and ballast before doing the eye-dropper thing.
and it should be self evident, but don't point the sprayer at the track, but mist the air above it or the ballast may go all over the place! There's no need to ask how I know that!
Whichever method of ballasting is used, I can recommend this Hoover rechargeable. The small nozzle adapter is ideal, and the fine mesh covering the fan stops even the finest dust. I liberated it from household management, as they objected to the colour...
(https://forum.009society.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi893.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac131%2Fgastwo_photos%2FTGR%2Fhoover.jpg&hash=2a7468705cc8fcde3214f322db8d6b232da710d9)