Good maorning,
My new, portable, layout - Blaenau North - will only have 4 points.
I've decided to control the points by rodding underneath the layout.
Using a system I have made before the rods will consist of wire coat hangers with a 90 degree bend at either end - one end to engage with the point tie bar and the other end to make a simple lever to move the rod. The mechanism will be supported by cable clips (U shaped clips with a nail on one side - use them to secure telephone wires as well) placed under the baseboard.
I will also incorporate a sliding polarity switch on the rod itself
This seems a simple solution - the question is - am I missing anything ?
Any comments would be gratefully received
Thanks
Bob
Hi Bob,
Sounds like a good concept overall, but unless I have missed something obvious, I can't quite see how the right angle bend on the coat hanger at the point end, being quite a thick profile is going to connect to the point tiebar, unless you are going to secure a much thinner piece of something like piano wire to it to make the actual connection with the tiebar?
Mick
Hello Bob
I have done something similar, but using bicycle spokes and mains electricity terminal blocks.
Here is a diagram of the basic principle:
(https://forum.009society.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.009dutch.nl%2Foddphotos%2Fspoke-diag.jpg&hash=1b29258c0237be86d785f70aa093a3284c31a04b)
The spoke passes through the baseboard edge (right) and through another bearing (left). I have improved the principle by fitting better bearings for the spoke. On the left in the diagram I have installed a piece of mains terminal block (the nylon strip with brass connecting terninals inside) through which the spoke runs. Using the brass terminal block inside the nylon strip, I made a runner that can be clamped tight on to the spoke. To this I soldered a piece of thin steel wire as a dropper, or alternatively a pin pointing up through the baseboard. Fit two stopper clamps to the spoke so it has a limited stroke. That will guard against over-stressing the point tiebar.
You can also clamp the piece of steel wire inside the brass terminal piece to extend the movement to signals etc. like I have done in the example shown below.
(https://forum.009society.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.009dutch.nl%2Farchive%2F2003%2Frae%2520bridge%2F257.jpg&hash=ef160ef6f0a14dbe69b81baa3535a788b6bbf296)
Using the terminal blocks at the end makes for a very reliable bearing and the spokes hardly needed ajustment during the 10 years they have been used. Instead of using the end knob on the spoke to operate the point, you can connect itm up to a lever frame of the type produced by GEM. Instead of switching the frog of the point using two wire strips as shown in the diagram, you can work a normal switch or perhaps a microswitch from the spoke as well.
More info on the Dutch Group website (http://www.009dutch.nl/archive/2003/pages/erae%20bridge2.htm).
Mick - as I said it will be simple so I will file the coathangar down to a fine point where it is required to connect to the tie bar
Ted - this is interesting and I will have a think about this method
Bob
I have tried a similar system with coat hanger rods under the baseboard and microswitches for the polarity switching.
However I drilled a vertical hole in the baseboard for a short brass rod rotating inside a brass tube, with a small crank soldered to the top of the rod to work the point and a larger crank at the bottom, soldered to a brass inner from an electrical terminal block, to connect to the coat hanger. Using the brass inner allows some adjustment of the height and angle, and the crank can then be secured to the rod with the screws in the terminal block.
Using this system, the rodding can run in any direction, it does not have to be at a right angle to the track.
The bottom crank is longer than the top one so the coat hanger moves a lot more than the point throw. This seemed to make it easier to set up.
The mechanical control of the point worked fine. The main difficulty I had was setting up the microswitch to switch reliably.
Frank
Frank
That's helpful and I need to think about this method too.
Please can I ask what the issues with the Microswitch were ? I have bought a couple from Maplins to try out
Regards
Bob
Bob,
The issue with the microswitch was as follows:
I had the type of microswitch with a springy steel actuating arm attached. I thought that setting this up so the rod pushed it as it changed the points would not be precise enough, so I decided to arrange it so the bottom crank actuated the arm as it turned, like a cam. This way it was possible to have the switch change over in mid-stroke and so be definitely switched over by the time the points have changed.
In the event the setting was too sensitive and the microswitches have kept going out of adjustment. It would have been better just to have the rod push them I think. If you position them more or less in the middle of the stroke and let the springiness in the arm take up the slack it should be OK.
Otherwise it's a good system.
Frank
For switching purposes I use another mains terminal screw block. I solder a brass pin to it, then position it on the operating rod so it hits the microswitch lever at the end of the operating stroke. That way you can fine tune the switching action any way you like.
I use a miniature toggle switch to change the frog polarity. Mounted on the outside of the baseboard and linked to the rod by a wire loop it acts to operate the turnout too.
David
Victoria BC Canada
Hi David,
Does that mean the toggle switch has a direct connection to the tie rod itself ?
I can see how a wire loop can pull the rod one way (towards you) but how does it work for pushing the rod away....or have I misunderstood ?
Thanks
Regards
Bob
Wire in tube can push as well as pull. The solution with a slide switch or a toggle switch above baseboard and a wire loop is another simple control method, but you need a tube to get the movement to the point blades. I use a similar method but below baseboard, to reach beyond some of the operating rods.
I have been re-building and finishing a layout started by the late Roy Watson in the 1970
Brian,
Again its one of those "doh " moments - I wish I had thought of that. The problem with wire coathangers is that the maximum useable length is only about a foot because of the bends in them, using a piece of rail would get over that.
Just to clarify on the switching, the SPST switch is connected back to the points/power by a set of wires ? I wasn't sure if you meant the rail rodding carried some of the switching ?
I find the polarity subject hard to understand so if you could just clarify that would be helpful
Thanks
Bob
The point blades do their own switching, but if you want a backup, you need to copy that with the switch. You connect the switch with three wires to the track close to the point (better not to solder to the point itself, as it says in the diagram - you might disturb the track gauge). The push/pull rod doesn't carry any current as it is connected to the plastic tie bar.
(https://forum.009society.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.009dutch.nl%2Foddphotos%2Ffrog%2520switching.jpg&hash=6c717325a45aed48b81efc1a0c60351c5eaa5cdf)
Ted has clarified where the wires need to go.
The reason I, and many others, fit frog polarity switches on every layout is that I have found the electrical switching in the points, that is often just the blade pressing against the fixed rail is not reliable enough.
Personally I would use wires to take the switched feeds back to the track from switch as I have now done on this layout.
However in the 70
And if I may say, all better than the amateur untidy mess I recently published in 009 News!!! ;D
Guys,
Thanks for the feedback and help
I now realise that one of the reasons that Blaenau North MK 1 ran so badly was because I had not fitted polarity change switching. So current was only being conducted by the blades and any little bit of dirt would cause the loco to stall on the point.
Hopefully the MK 2 version will run better - looking at the new Peco Mainline turnouts I've noticed that some wiring is helpfully provided - similar to their standard gauge ones
Bob
The funny thing is I have used Peco 12" radius points without backup switches in several layouts. If they are kept clean during ballasting, and if you scratch out the seating areas of the point blades against the outer rails, the switching action of the point blades is enough. However, using backup switches ensures you will never have to admit defeat during an exhibition!
Ted has a valid point.
If you keep the joint clean then the points do work. But if you fit the switches you never need to clean the joint.
Having one fail at an exhibition is not good, and it will inevitably happen at the most inopportune moment!
Cleaning the track regularly (I do it every day I use the layout) is bad enough but having to clean all the point blades and stock rails would be a complete pain.
Obviously you need to be mindful of physical obstructions but having the polarity switches makes ballasting and painting the points a lot easier.
As to the locos stalling in the Peco 12 inch and Y 009 points, this may not be the electrical switching as smooth running is a bit of a problem with the points made before about 2010.
Getting the back to back wheel measurements correct helps, but in many cases even with the correct back to back staling is still a problem. In my experience some slight modifications to the points as made are required.
Peco 12 inch 009 points were given a (non-publicised) makeover in about 2010 and these new ones are a massive improvement and as far as I can tell work well straight out the box.
So how to tell the difference:
The part numbers and packaging are the same, so that is no help. In fact the part number is also the same for the pre-1980 9 inch radii 009 points as well! So you have to actually look at the points, there are several small differences but the easiest one to spot is that on the old points the blades are pivoted in a fishplate but on the new points the blades are pivoted in a proper pivot. Just like the Mainline 009 points.
These days when purchasing Peco 009 points you need to watch out for old stock, as in many cases the 009 points will sit unsold in a model shops for some years!
Brian Meldon
Yup, agree with all of this!
Three of the points on the L&TR have failed (well, some of them are nearly 40 years old so I'm not complaining!) and I've installed ordinary toggle switches to suppliment the point blades. It's wonderful to not stand and curse whilst trying to hold the blade over with a cocktail stick during shunting!
Interesting to read all of the above, as the Burnbake and Woodyhyde line (currently under construction) has adopted Ted's system using bicycle spokes under the board, which are somewhat more robust than coat-hangers. As his diagram shows, if these are run through the front of the baseboard they do also need some stabilisation at the far end; in my case I've used a small block of insulating material (like dense polystyrene) with a hole though the middle, glued to the underside of the baseboard. This also adds a useful amount of friction to the 'pull' of the rod. I bent the rod through 90deg and soldered a track pin to the top to engage the hole in the tie bar. Using brass electrical connectors would probably have been easier for adding the 'tail', rather than soldering a rearward extension on. As the line isn't fully open yet it remains how well this system works long term, but Ted's comments seem to suggest it's fairly durable, which is good news!
David.